Ryan and Ashley Alderson: The Ultimate Attorney Duo | EP 26

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You have to make that decision
when you walk through the

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threshold.
I think if you have a plan,

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invariably you're going to
change it.

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It's not like TV.
It's not like Suits don't watch

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Suits and decide.
People can, like, form their own

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realities.
Everybody's got a plan.

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Until you punch in the mouth.
You are in front of a jury when

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something goes really, really
badly.

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You can't show that.
You can't show frustration, you

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can't show that you're flustered
or anything like that.

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I agree that I don't think you
are really invested in it if you

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do not have some kind of nerves.
There there are three people

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that you never lied to.
Your lawyer, your doctor, and

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Jesus.
Growing a small to mid sized

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business is like pushing a stop
train.

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You're going to need help to get
that initial momentum going.

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Administrative tasks like
payroll, managing health

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insurance, and HR operations
only add unnecessary weight to

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your already busy schedule.
That's why I'd choose Questco.

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They'd take care of all the
behind the scenes administrative

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and HR work, letting you focus
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your business.
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outsourcing HR service provider
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Questco.
Visit questco.net or call your

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local Questco representative
Thomas Owens at 864-477-0843 to

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get started today.
Today we are joined by an

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accomplished married couple,
both practicing law here in the

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Upstate.
Ryan Alderson is recognized as

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one of South Carolina's top
litigators and his wife Ashley

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is also a well known divorce
attorney here in the area.

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The two met deer in law school
and have each built thriving

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legal careers ever since.
So thank you guys so much for

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joining us on the podcast today.
We're excited to dive into all

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that the law and knowledge that
you both have well.

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Thank you for having us.
Yeah, happy.

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To be here.
So when when we first met,

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Christina made Christina share
with me that they are both

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attorneys and I was like, wow,
that is both super time

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consuming.
But obviously you're both very

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intelligent.
So with that, with both of you

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being practicing attorneys, do
you ever find yourselves having,

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we'll say, spirited debates at
home?

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No, we just let her win any of
the debates that come.

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Up.
That's the right answer.

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That is awesome.
Yeah, they're cool.

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But y'all, I guess you met at
South University, South Carolina

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law school.
That's correct.

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Was that like during class?
Were y'all study partners?

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Or, well, let Ashley tell that
story.

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We we had class together our
second year of law school.

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I really wouldn't say that we
knew who the other was at that

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point.
Met socially a little later on,

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but thinking back, this
particular teacher would call on

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you based on your name,
alphabetical order, and you

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could anticipate what your
question was going to be based

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on where he was in the alphabet
for the next class, that kind of

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thing.
And I began to notice that the

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person in front of me, I could
never get my timing right

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because they were never in
class.

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Turns out that was right.
He was always going to the

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beach.
And so I was always getting

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tripped up on my questions and.
Yeah, could not prepare.

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Why?
Why are we skipping class?

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I wasn't skipping, I was
participating in other

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extracurricular activities.
Ohh, trying to broaden my

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knowledge such.
As a beer by the beach that

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helps you think about your
career in mall.

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Yeah, yeah.
I think you learn more that way.

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Appreciate that.
Well, now that y'all did

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graduate law school and you're
practicing attorneys, you also

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have a daughter at home.
How would you say y'all are

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balancing both?
Working full time, raising a

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child, supporting your spouse?
That's a lot to balance.

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It is a lot to balance.
I mean, I feel like any most all

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working parents or even if
you're not a working parent, if

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you have the benefit of having
family in the area with you.

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I'd say that we really could not
do it without our family members

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that are close by and who are
willing to step up anytime

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something at the office comes
up.

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It's not anticipated or maybe
something else personally and

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just helps us to adjust to be
able to support everything.

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And that's it.
Beyond that, you really have to

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be able to compartmentalize.
When I was a prosecuting union,

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it was about an hour drive.
And at first I kind of hated

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that because you're an hour away
from everything that you want to

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do.
But particularly with that line

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of work, you know, when you're
dealing with the dregs of

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society and kind of the worst of
the worst humanity, it's good to

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have that hour buffer just to be
able to come back, sort of

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decomp in the car a little bit.
And then when you get home, you

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can be husband or dad as opposed
to prosecutor or whatever it

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might be.
Commute's a little bit shorter

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these days.
It's 4 minutes.

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Not not quite as much.
Yeah, not quite as much decomp

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time, but I still think that's
healthy.

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So how would you say that you
you can press now after some of

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these?
You just have to you have to

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make that decision when you walk
through the threshold of you got

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to drop everything that happened
at the office, at the office,

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you come through the threshold
and your dad and your husband.

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So I think that's it's hard to
do.

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I mean, there's certainly days
where it's it's much more

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difficult than others, but I
still think that's that's

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probably one of the most
important skills that you can

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kind of focus on for really any
clear.

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So did y'all decide while you're
still in school what kind of

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route you wanted to go to in
law?

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I definitely didn't.
I, you can in a way kind of

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begin to focus your classes,
maybe some of the electives if

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you have an interest in a
particular type of law, but you

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don't have to either.
And so right out of school, if

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you're looking for a job,
sometimes you take the first one

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that you get offered.
And so I did and it was with a

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general practice firm.
So that allowed me to handle

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probate matters, estate planning
matters, some civil matters and

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family matters.
So family matters is where I

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found myself really enjoying my
time.

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And so then when I transitioned
out of that firm, it was into

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solely practicing family law.
And I was the exact opposite.

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I knew exactly what I wanted to
do and it was criminal.

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And that is 180° different from
what I do now.

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I mean, yeah, criminal law,
important extinction.

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Important extinction.
No, I was going 100% the crim

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route.
I was going to go work for the

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solicitor's office, then go out
and do criminal defense.

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I did that for a little bit and
then kind of fell into this

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civil litigation practice and,
and really ended up enjoying it.

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So it's the, I think if you have
a plan, invariably you're going

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to change it.
And if you don't have a plan,

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that's fine, because you're
going, you're going to end up

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where you need to be.
Is law one of those things where

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you spend a lot of time
learning?

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Say you learned criminal
defense.

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Is it hard to adjust into a
different type of law?

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I don't think so.
I think if you know specifically

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criminal prosecution, I think if
you're a prosecutor, I think

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that gives you a toolbox and a
skill set that you can apply to

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literally any other type of
practice of law.

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I mean, maybe not like
transactional or contractual or

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that kind of thing, but I think
pretty much anything else that's

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a really, really good baseline.
Similar for family too, because

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you're dealing with folks at
their most emotionally raw and

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if you can sort of corral that
and and channel that into

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something positive and, and in
an efficient way, I think that

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that gives you a lot of leeway
to do a lot of other things.

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It's just great to hear about
the different avenues you can

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go, and I feel like we scratched
the surface with all your

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options that you had.
But to backtrack a little bit,

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at what point did you know you
wanted to be an attorney?

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I kind of had the benefit of
growing up.

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My dad was an attorney.
So I, I grew up getting to go.

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I mean, we'd come from a really,
really small town, Cumberland,

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MD, way up in the Appalachians.
But I mean, I would grow up as a

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little kid going to court with
dad and watching dad try cases

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and hearings.
Emotions and what?

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Kind of attorney was.
He was general practice at that

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point because it was that small
a town that anything that walks

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in the door, that's what you're
going to do.

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So that was kind of normal for
me growing up and I still

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thought it was the coolest thing
in the world.

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College took a little bit of a
different route.

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I was an accounting and finance
major and college just wanted to

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sort of broaden the horizons a
little bit, but kind of always

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knew that eventually I'd I'd
come back into the fold with

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that.
So when you think about your

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first experience with
litigation, how soon after law

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school was that?
Did you have any nerves going

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into it?
Yeah, I think if you don't have,

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I mean if you don't have nerves,
I think it probably doesn't

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matter to you.
And I think those guys that that

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say especially for the first
couple times that they're not

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nervous, they're lying to you.
So certainly was really nervous

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when I started with the
solicitor's office we just had,

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there were three of us that were
there in Union County.

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I was in trial sitting second
chair, I think my 8th day there.

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So second chair obviously isn't
as big a deal as first chair.

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First chair you're kind of
driving the ship, Second chair

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you're helping out with
witnesses, files, that kind of

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thing.
But that's still, I think

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incredibly nerve wracking
actually.

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I think I tossed in even sooner
than I did, actually.

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I did, but, but I'd say I agree
with Ryan that I do think you're

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always going to have some kind
of nerve when you're walking

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into the courtroom just, I mean,
because what we're doing now,

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yes, it, I mean, it involves us
and it's reflective of us at the

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end of the day.
But we're doing it for other

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people.
And so the impact that we have

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on their lives.
I I agree that I don't think you

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are really invested in it if you
do not have some kind of nerves,

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just because that is such a just
position that someone has

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voluntarily put you in for their
own life.

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It's a weight, it's a have you.
How do you find yourselves day

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in, day out, no days off, being
able to carry that weight?

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Well, like Ryan said, the
compartmentalization, I think

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I've always been pretty good at
separating what my clients are

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dealing with and then what I'm
doing at home.

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I grew up an athlete and so
again, same thing, you know,

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something happens on the field,
you got to let it go.

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You got to move forward and be
ready for the next pitch, the

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next play, whatever it was.
And so I've had the benefit of

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that when transitioning into
practicing of whether you don't

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get the outcome that you want in
the courtroom.

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You've got a client who's just
had a bad day and they're taking

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it out on you.
It's not your fault.

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There's only so much you can do.
At the end of the day, their

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facts are their facts, and if
you can just accept that, then I

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think it makes it a little bit
easier to leave it behind.

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I.
Don't know, sometimes it could

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be your fault.
We try for it not to be.

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Yeah, absolutely.
Which actually, with the sports

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analogy, didn't you play college
softball?

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I did played softball down at
Coastal Carolina.

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Okay, that's right.
And Brian, did you play sports

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growing up?
Growing up, sure, but definitely

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not at the collegiate well, it.
Helped bring in that

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competitiveness in you, I guess,
from an early age.

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But it's good to hear you had
the example of a great attorney

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growing up.
Ashley, at what point did you

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know you wanted to be an
attorney?

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When I applied to law school,
I've got a degree in biology.

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And so yes, at the, when I was
coming up on the end of my time

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in undergrad, I mean, I
appreciate science.

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I like, I like the clear cut
facts as as much as you can have

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clear cut facts.
And law is not always that way,

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00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,680
but to an extent, I mean, there
are the rules and you can follow

227
00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:08,080
them, and there is the case law
that you're going to read and

228
00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:09,800
try to fit your case within as
well.

229
00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,760
So I appreciated that and I took
the LSAT when I saw it was being

230
00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,720
given and got into law school.
Did you study for it at all?

231
00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,640
I may have studied some.
I may have bought a book.

232
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:26,760
And that just tells you Ashley
is smart.

233
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:28,000
It's incredibly.
Impressive, yeah.

234
00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:31,920
So what did you love about law
school or what was your least

235
00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:33,840
favorite part?
It's obviously law school is

236
00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:37,040
very demanding, lots of reading
and time in the books.

237
00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,080
The reading stinks.
It's it's, it's dry, it's

238
00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:45,120
boring.
It's, I mean, cases that are

239
00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,560
hundreds of years old, some of
them.

240
00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,960
And then you get to the end of
that case and you're in the rest

241
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,760
of that chapter and it's like,
but that doesn't actually matter

242
00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,120
anymore.
I still don't understand why we

243
00:11:58,120 --> 00:11:59,440
had to read this, but that
doesn't matter.

244
00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:00,680
Anymore.
Would they expose you if you

245
00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:03,880
didn't read it?
Oh yeah, yeah, being cold.

246
00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:07,720
Cold was a very real thing.
And if you didn't have some

247
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,840
semblance of an answer, even if
it was wrong, you know, you're

248
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,720
up there talking to a room of 60
people a lot of the time, which

249
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,120
was a smaller class.
So yeah, that's, and that's part

250
00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:19,760
of the reason it's sort of a
scare tactic to get you to read

251
00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,120
so that you're not sitting there
thinking, oh, I'm fine, I'm

252
00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,640
going to coast through this.
And all of a sudden you're

253
00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,040
sitting there sounding like a
like you don't know what you're

254
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:29,360
talking about because you don't.
What if you read but didn't

255
00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,120
comprehend well?
That's fine.

256
00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:32,800
That's fine if you at least
tried.

257
00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:34,240
If you at least tried, that's
OK.

258
00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:38,000
And if you can put forth enough
verbiage that they know you

259
00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,760
actually read it, if you can hit
some buzzwords, if they know you

260
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,160
read it, you're going to be OK.
I mean, they might call you an

261
00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:44,200
idiot, but you're going.
To be OK.

262
00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,040
OK, well, but yeah.
Was there ever any debates in

263
00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,200
this class?
Sometimes, but not nearly what

264
00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,800
it used to be.
And I think we were kind of the

265
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,800
very tip of the collegiate
culture where it really is kind

266
00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,240
of chilled debate where you
don't want to get cancelled and

267
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,440
and that kind of thing.
So, yeah, I mean, if you talking

268
00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:07,720
like law school in the 80s,
which is when my dad went,

269
00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,520
that's when you would have the
really good spirited debates

270
00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,360
about people from just very
different ideological

271
00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:16,240
backgrounds talking respectfully
about their different

272
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:17,520
viewpoints.
You don't.

273
00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:18,680
You don't really have that
anymore.

274
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:23,200
It's kind of a shame because I
imagine the courtroom you have

275
00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,920
that so.
Well, it's and it depends on

276
00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:30,560
what you're talking about with a
debate, right, whether it's

277
00:13:30,560 --> 00:13:35,280
someone standing up and again,
their their own personal views

278
00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,200
on the subject or if you have
been assigned to take a certain

279
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,360
position on the case and that
kind of debate, right?

280
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,280
And because that's what you've
got in the courtroom, right?

281
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:44,880
It's not what you necessarily
personally believe.

282
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,400
It's your clients position on
whatever the issue is.

283
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,200
So there's certainly that,
right.

284
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,400
You might have one side of the
case, the other side of the case

285
00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,440
in law school, but not as much
of the personal view.

286
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,720
I wouldn't say yeah.
Do you have Raft to go through

287
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,200
litigation as a divorce
attorney?

288
00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,400
Oh yes, yeah.
Well, and so I mean litigation,

289
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,160
I would just consider anything
that's in the courtroom.

290
00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,080
So our courtroom is a bit
different than his courtroom

291
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,120
being that we don't have a jury.
So any of the arguments that I

292
00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,520
make are just to a judge, which
I appreciate Ryan's over there,

293
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:25,000
yes, smirking because it's it is
different and that's the nicest

294
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:29,880
way to put it.
But there, there is a bit more

295
00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,160
showmanship, I'll say, to what
Ryan does because he's got to

296
00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,280
convince 12.
So I don't, I don't even know

297
00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,880
how many people, honestly, a
jury, whatever the size, yes,

298
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:40,800
whatever the size the jury is,
he's got to convince them that

299
00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:42,760
he's right.
And they are not educated on the

300
00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:47,480
law a lot of the time.
But for me, I've we work with

301
00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,720
some great judges here across
the Upstate.

302
00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:51,760
Do you feel like you know most
of the judges at this point?

303
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,520
Yeah, I think they take me as a
familiar face at this point.

304
00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:58,480
But but yes, they they are
educated.

305
00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,320
I don't have to give maybe as
much flash necessarily as Ryan

306
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:03,640
does in.
Some situations.

307
00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,360
Yeah, which which I appreciate.
He's the better storyteller, and

308
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:09,520
his answers are better than mine
on that way.

309
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,080
So when you think about your
first jobs after law school,

310
00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,120
what was day one like with those
and what were those jobs?

311
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,640
So I spent, I'm not going to
name the firm, but I, I was with

312
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:25,960
a, a firm that does a lot of
retirement and employee benefit

313
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,240
recovery, which is exactly as
boring as it is.

314
00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:33,000
I mean, it makes watching paint
dry look like a full contact

315
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,920
sport.
I was not with them very long,

316
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,360
but I can tell you that there
was that moment of sheer terror

317
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,320
when I was a couple weeks in and
I thought, oh gosh, is this what

318
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,320
practicing law is like?
Because if so, I've wasted seven

319
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,680
years of my life in school
because I don't want to do this.

320
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,920
When I made the jump to the
solicitor's office, it was night

321
00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:54,640
and day.
I mean, just flipping a switch.

322
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:57,320
And that's kind of when I fell
back in love with the practice a

323
00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,000
lot.
So yeah, that that first couple,

324
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,360
you know, you take whatever job
you can get, but making making a

325
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:05,720
match that makes sense, I think
is really, really important.

326
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,840
I honestly do not remember my
first day at my first shop, but

327
00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:13,400
it was that general practice
firm.

328
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:19,400
So I mean, I, it was me and one
other attorney there.

329
00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,520
And so I had to hop in on things
very quickly.

330
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:26,320
And I remember going in front of
a judge my first time having

331
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:29,120
absolutely no idea what I was
there for, what I was supposed

332
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,800
to do.
I was just, I was just told

333
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,160
like, oh, it's easy, you'll
figure it out.

334
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,360
Go so.
What do they say?

335
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,240
Learn.
You learn by jumping right into

336
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:40,040
the fire.
Sometimes.

337
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,480
That's what you did.
And so again, given the type of

338
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,320
careers y'all are in, there's
high pressure.

339
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:47,880
You're dealing with a divorce
situation.

340
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,520
A lot of the times you're facing
someone that has been with the

341
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:53,080
other person for such a long
time.

342
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,520
There's a lot of pressure on you
to help your client.

343
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,520
And in your case, same story,
you have to help your client.

344
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,400
There's tons of pressure there.
How do you manage that pressure

345
00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,200
day in and day out, especially
for some of those cases that go

346
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,160
on and on and seem like they're
taking forever?

347
00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,640
I mean, another big thing is we
keep coming back to the

348
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,599
compartmentalization.
I mean, just being able to do

349
00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:13,000
that.
And I think the other thing

350
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,640
it's, it's healthy to realize
how lucky you are to be in a

351
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,800
position to do that.
I mean, we're white collar

352
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,800
people that work in air
conditioned offices.

353
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,119
There are a lot worse things you
can be doing to make a living.

354
00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,520
That's right.
My grandfather's a railroad

355
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,480
mechanic.
So, you know, I always try to

356
00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:31,800
think back on how lucky we are
to be in the position that we

357
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:33,440
are.
And it makes it a lot easier to

358
00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,800
sit there and take those phone
calls and make those motions and

359
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,280
deal with those hearings and
stuff like that.

360
00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,040
If you can really couch it in a
hey, this is a cool thing that

361
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,200
we get to do.
So that's that's how I look at

362
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:48,120
it.
It's, I mean, all we can do is

363
00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:51,920
what we can do we, we don't
create our facts a lot of the

364
00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:54,360
time.
All I can do is try to take what

365
00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:58,760
we're given, provide my client
with as much insight and

366
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,320
information as possible so that
they can try to make an educated

367
00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,680
decision on their situation.
And to the extent that they can

368
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:12,760
remove the emotion, because not
that the court doesn't care, but

369
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:14,720
you have to understand what the
court sees.

370
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,360
And sometimes in the grand
scheme of what's going in front

371
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:20,360
of this judge, you're doing
really well.

372
00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:25,080
And so not that your concerns
don't matter, but they're just

373
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:27,120
not going to be as concerning to
that other person.

374
00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:31,040
So I think the best I can do for
someone is to help educate them

375
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,280
on what's likely going to
happen.

376
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,400
And if you're talking pressure,
like specifically as it pertains

377
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:41,920
to the litigation process, who's
that female tennis player Billie

378
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,280
Jean King.
So she's got a quote about

379
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,280
pressure.
That's pressure is a privilege.

380
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,000
I don't like that.
I like Peyton Manning's quote or

381
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,960
his retort to that better.
And it's pressure is what you

382
00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:53,440
feel when you don't know what
the hell you're doing.

383
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,800
And some kind of the way that
that I approach and she does

384
00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,040
too, the way that you approach
getting ready for a trial or

385
00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:03,080
hearing or whatever it might be
is I know that I know the fact

386
00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,280
pattern and and everything about
that case better than anyone

387
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,720
else in that room.
So regardless of what happens,

388
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,440
we're going to deal with.
It right, That's great.

389
00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,000
Well, have you all ever had,
like, clients that were

390
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:17,200
difficult?
I'm sure you have clients that

391
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,920
are difficult to work with, but
like, lied to you or made your

392
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,000
job more difficult?
Absolutely, yeah.

393
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,720
The day you take on clients is
the day they start lying.

394
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,440
It's just a matter of figuring
out how big that lie is and how

395
00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:33,440
bad it's going to hurt you.
Oh.

396
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,000
Yeah, it's tough.
It's just it's not helpful.

397
00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,120
You don't want the first time I
learned this to be in the

398
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:43,160
courtroom when I can't help
protect you against it or have

399
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,560
an explanation for it.
And I am just short of

400
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,520
dumbfounded.
What what you want me to say to

401
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:50,920
this judge?
Did that happen?

402
00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:53,880
Yes, it did.
It is as bad as it sounds.

403
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:55,640
You don't want to be in that
situation.

404
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:58,200
Actually makes fun of me for
this, but I've actually come up

405
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,960
with something that that I tell
these folks and when I sit down

406
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,000
and I talk to my clients
particularly, it's a criminal

407
00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,240
matter.
Say there there are three people

408
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,000
that you never lied to, your
lawyer, your doctor and Jesus.

409
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,840
I didn't go to Med school.
I can't walk on water, but I do

410
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,040
have a lot license.
Please don't lie to me.

411
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:17,120
That's good.
Sometimes it works, sometimes

412
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,440
it.
Depends on the client.

413
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:20,680
Yeah, I would.
Imagine that just makes things

414
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,680
so much more difficult when
they're telling you all these

415
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:24,760
facts.
You're spending hours on this

416
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:29,320
case and then maybe it just gets
thrown to shreds because some

417
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,960
information that was maybe left
out or just completely false.

418
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,960
There are very few things that I
can't at least try to shape

419
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,600
positively if I know about it,
But if I don't know about it and

420
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,360
it comes out in a context where
I can't control the narrative,

421
00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:45,200
it's game of Lost.
Cause yeah.

422
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,240
There's just nothing you can do.
Yeah, it's highly likely that

423
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,920
it's going to come out.
So just we hear a lot, it's not

424
00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,520
going to make us uncomfortable
or you shouldn't feel too

425
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:55,400
embarrassed.
Just say it.

426
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,640
Whatever it is, tell us, right?
Have you ever experienced

427
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,000
malpractice and such like the
opposing attorney was maybe

428
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,840
doing something dirty or that
you wouldn't agree with?

429
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,360
Dirty and malpractice are two
different things.

430
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,840
Dirty, sure.
I mean, I've seen some guys that

431
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,840
are on my short list as far as
I'm going to have every

432
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,880
communication I have with you in
writing or things like that.

433
00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,280
I I don't think I've ever seen
outright malpractice, or at

434
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:22,800
least nothing that I would
constitute as outright

435
00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,880
malpractice.
I'm gonna decline to not be

436
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:28,200
increased.
Yeah, that's fair.

437
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,040
That's fair.
Well, OK, so I guess you do have

438
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:34,560
obviously tons of experience in
litigation, you both.

439
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,640
What traits would you say make a
great litigator?

440
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,200
Ability to think on your feet #1
because it's, it's that Mike

441
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:42,760
Tyson thing, you know,
everybody's got to play until

442
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,080
you punch in the mouth.
And that's specifically what I

443
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:46,880
do.
Because you are in front of a

444
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,000
jury.
So you can't, you know, when

445
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,000
something goes really, really
badly, you can't show that.

446
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,000
You can't show frustration.
You can't show that you're

447
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,400
flustered or anything like that.
Because these people are going

448
00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:57,680
to pick up on it.
Man, I would be terrible.

449
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,400
My face turns red and it's so
obvious for me.

450
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,120
And that's what he's thinking
before he even.

451
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:04,680
Says it well.
You got, you got to watch that.

452
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:08,480
I'd say the, the ability to
think on your feet is kind of #1

453
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,280
just being comfortable being
able to pivot and and turn on a

454
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:13,600
dime.
I think that's important.

455
00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:18,680
Yeah, the willingness to put the
work in there.

456
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,880
Maybe there are some hearings or
phone calls, meetings, what have

457
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,920
you, that you could show up and
pull it together in a few

458
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,200
minutes.
But you're you're going to get

459
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:32,520
caught up in that at some point.
Just there are some people that

460
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,880
you can outwork and that's going
to win your case for you.

461
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,640
So an attorney who's willing to
put the time and energy into it

462
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,120
that it deserves, I think that's
going to make a good litigator

463
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:43,800
as well.
And obviously there's a good, I

464
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:45,800
mean, obviously a great feeling
at the end of the day when

465
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:47,840
you've done your job and you've
served your client.

466
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,640
Do you recall that time when you
first had that successful case?

467
00:22:53,520 --> 00:23:00,320
Yes, I, I tried a couple smaller
matters prior to having our

468
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,120
child, but the biggest one I'd
had up until that point in my

469
00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:08,760
career.
So that was 2023 I had right

470
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,440
after I came back from maternity
leave.

471
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,920
It was two weeks after I came
back from maternity leave and it

472
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:18,240
was a five day trial.
And not that the stakes aren't

473
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,720
high anytime someone's going to
trial, but in this one, it meant

474
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:26,560
the child residing in our state
or being shipped across the

475
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,920
country to another state.
So that was going to greatly

476
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:35,360
impact someone's life.
And when we got about halfway

477
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:40,040
through it and the judge pulled
us into chambers and let us know

478
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,280
that basically if the opposing
party continued down this road,

479
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,080
it was not going to go well for
him.

480
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:51,280
And I was just ecstatic that it
was very stressful coming back

481
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,720
from being on leave and jumping
into this case, not that we had

482
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,240
it prepared, but really the
first one of that magnitude.

483
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,200
And so getting that feeling was
awesome, not just for myself,

484
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,080
but for my client.
I was, she was wonderful, was so

485
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,040
happy for her so.
That's got to be such a cool

486
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,720
moment to be able to that's
people's probably one of their

487
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,880
happiest moments, most joyful of
their lives.

488
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,640
It was probably one of the worst
things that she had dealt with.

489
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,760
So yes, I think having that
resolved in a way that was

490
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,520
favorable to her was likely up
there for her unhappy moments.

491
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,920
I don't remember any particular
one, but in what I do both

492
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,160
criminally or what I used to do
criminally and what I do civilly

493
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,200
now, when they read the verdict,
it still is a very theatrical

494
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,160
process.
So the jury files in, they all

495
00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,320
sit down.
The foreperson will stand up and

496
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:41,640
hand the verdict for him to the
bailiff.

497
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,040
The bailiff will take it, walk
it across the room to the clerk

498
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:46,960
of court.
The clerk of court will hand it

499
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:48,880
to the judge.
The judge will take a look at

500
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,680
it, hand it back to the clerk of
court and said, Madam clerk, you

501
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:56,000
may publish the verdict and
they'll read the case number and

502
00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,720
the case caption.
This whole thing takes between

503
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:03,160
4:00 and 6:00 minutes.
I mean, from the time they come

504
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:04,920
in till they're doing it and
you're sitting there the whole

505
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:06,200
time.
You've got a client next to you

506
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,120
or if you're the state, I mean,
you're just kind of sitting

507
00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:10,880
there by yourself and you're
kind of waiting like, OK, what's

508
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,720
going to happen?
They say we the jury find and

509
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,880
then they drop it.
So again, I don't remember a

510
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,040
particular one, but that that
whole process every time is is

511
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,360
always fun I guess.
That's great.

512
00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:23,920
The relief that washes over you
when you're waiting on the

513
00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,480
ruling and then you hear I'm
ruling for depending on who

514
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:28,840
you're representing, right, the
plaintiff.

515
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,480
And it's just.
That's great.

516
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,000
Well, success stories are always
a lot of fun and but with that

517
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,960
being said, I work in a people
business and love it and there's

518
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,640
so many ways I say I feel
rewarded during my day meeting

519
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,520
with clients.
How would you say or describe

520
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,840
the most rewarding part of your
job is?

521
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:54,000
Getting to and it doesn't.
It doesn't happen as often as

522
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:59,480
I'd like, but getting to help
folks that A deserve it and B

523
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,000
really and truly have never
gotten a break in their entire

524
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,440
life.
I had a case that we wrapped up

525
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:06,880
probably about a year ago at
this point.

526
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,280
This young girl, she was 17 at
the time, literally had just the

527
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:14,280
most tragic childhood you can
imagine.

528
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,240
From sexual abuse to just going
in and out of orphanages, the

529
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,600
whole 9 yards.
She finally reconciles with her

530
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,040
mother.
She gets in an unrelated car

531
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:24,320
wreck.
OK, she's a minor.

532
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:26,080
She calls her mom.
Mom comes out at the scene,

533
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,080
State troopers are on on the
scene.

534
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,320
They do a horrible job with
traffic control.

535
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,200
Mom is walking across the street
to meet the daughter.

536
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:34,520
Mom gets hit and killed by a
car.

537
00:26:35,360 --> 00:26:38,280
I mean, just worst set of facts
you could imagine from a just

538
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:41,000
horrible story that she had
coming on.

539
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,200
No one will give her the time of
day.

540
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,480
Nobody wanted to deal with her.
She came and she talked to us.

541
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,520
We took the case.
And I mean, there's no recovery

542
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,400
that ever makes that right.
But we did.

543
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:54,680
We did everything we could.
And she's in a much better

544
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,160
position, at least financially
now than she would have been

545
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,840
otherwise.
So stories like that, I enjoy it

546
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:02,360
because that's someone who
really and truly is down on

547
00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:05,240
their luck and needs help.
Don't have as many of those as

548
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,240
I'd like, but that's also a good
thing because that means I don't

549
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:08,840
have as many horror stories as
that.

550
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,680
Right.
That is so impactful.

551
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,560
That's yeah, you can't go to
work and go to a case like that

552
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,520
and say my job doesn't have
purpose.

553
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,400
Which I guess, Ashley, you
probably feel the same way,

554
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,920
helping your clients through
divorce, one of the hardest

555
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,480
times in their life.
Yeah.

556
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,320
No, I'd agree.
And it really is the people that

557
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:28,720
you work with.
There are some cases that you

558
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,080
might be closer to because of
those people.

559
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,520
But yes, everybody who we come
in, I'm, I mean, happy to help

560
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,120
and be there for them that extra
support that they need during

561
00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:42,600
that time.
Have you ever been on a case and

562
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,960
maybe you have a client and as
you learn more facts, the case

563
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,320
gets deeper?
You realize, hey, maybe my

564
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,480
clients actually in the wrong.
Oh yeah.

565
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,720
How do you handle that?
Well, you just have to sit down

566
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:57,800
and one of the things that I do
when I'm meeting with clients

567
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,520
for the first time and I get in
trouble for this on occasion,

568
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:02,480
but I tell them, I'm not going
to sugarcoat anything.

569
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,320
You know, it doesn't benefit me
or you for me to tell you what

570
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:08,040
you want to hear as opposed to
what the truth actually is.

571
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,320
So we kind of have that
relationship from the start.

572
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,160
And then as the case devolves in
a situation like you're talking

573
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,000
about, you just sit down and you
have the come to Jesus talk of,

574
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,760
hey, listen, this is where we
started this process.

575
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,760
This is the side of facts we
were operating under.

576
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,080
Here's where we are now.
Here's the new set of facts and

577
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,040
it is what it is.
So we need to come up with a new

578
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,320
game plan.
Most of the time they're

579
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,960
receptive to that.
Sometimes you get the folks that

580
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,160
don't and you kind of have to
play how they.

581
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:35,400
Leave or.
Yeah.

582
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,120
I mean, at that point, you know,
you really have one or two

583
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:39,680
choices.
You can say, listen, this is how

584
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:42,880
I'm, I'm ethically obligated to
prosecute this case.

585
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,240
This is what I'm going to do.
You can stay, you can go.

586
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,120
And most of the time if, if
they're not willing to do that,

587
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,240
or certainly if I know they're
going to commit perjury or

588
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,440
something like that, then then
we part ways professionally.

589
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,480
Yeah, mine is.
I mean, I certainly cannot have

590
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,360
a client commit perjury.
So basically they're lying

591
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,720
underoath.
But mine's a bit different in

592
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,600
that at the end of the day, I'm
I am hired to do a job and

593
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,960
support your interests.
Now, as I said earlier, I think

594
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,320
one of the best things that I
can do for a client is to help

595
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:19,880
educate them and give them kind
of the likelihood of what the

596
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:22,360
outcome might be if we continue
to push this issue.

597
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,800
But at the end of the day, I'll
remind them it is their case.

598
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,040
It's their life.
I don't have to live with this

599
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,040
outcome at the end of the day,
but be it this settlement or

600
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,200
whatever it is that the judge
orders, and some people, they do

601
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,640
just need to go in front of a
judge.

602
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,720
They will accept whatever that
ruling is, but they need that

603
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:42,280
person to tell them and that's
fine.

604
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,200
So there have only been a
handful of situations where

605
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,080
maybe an issue has come up that
I have felt personally I have to

606
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,720
remove myself from it because be
it my clients actions or

607
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:57,920
something else involved.
But yeah, my role's a little bit

608
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,760
different in that I am hired for
those interest in whatever it is

609
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,080
you're looking for in court.
Have you seen perjury often?

610
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,800
No, none of my clients have ever
committed perjury.

611
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,880
OK.
Have you seen opposing clients

612
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:13,400
for the?
Camera.

613
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:16,240
What?
I'm, I'm not joking, but

614
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,480
certainly, yeah.
Yeah, I've seen, especially when

615
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,800
I was a solicitor, I've seen
defendants perjure themselves

616
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,360
left and right.
But that's, that's almost good

617
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,520
for me, especially as the state,
if I've got something that I can

618
00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,880
then impeach them with, you
know, then I can go through

619
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,040
that.
And, and especially because, you

620
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,600
know, the judge, they're people.
So they look at that and of

621
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,800
course they're, they're the, you
know, judges of the, the law as

622
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:42,120
opposed to the judges of the
fact.

623
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,800
But if a judge sees somebody
sitting up there that is just

624
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,600
blatantly lying, that's going to
influence kind of how the rest

625
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,320
of the trial goes to.
Which I can speak to that a

626
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,680
little bit.
I don't work in your world at

627
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,360
all or anything close to it.
But I got called for jury duty

628
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,880
two years ago and thought, well,
I don't have time for this, you

629
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,160
know, hopefully I just go say my
name, whatever, and they kick me

630
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,360
out.
You know, sure enough, they take

631
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,400
me on, I get.
I love that.

632
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,560
For the case you know you love
it, but not when you have a

633
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:10,840
demanding job.
I'm like I.

634
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,200
Would have loved to have you on
the job.

635
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,080
Yes, well, sign me up.
Just not this year.

636
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,840
I'm busy.
So anyways, of all cases, it was

637
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,680
a murder case.
And the murderer who ended up,

638
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,400
you know, confessing or whatever
you may call it the next day, he

639
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:28,480
chose to represent himself for
his.

640
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,800
Murder trial.
So that was very interesting to

641
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,760
say the least.
Day one we went through the

642
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,120
trial.
I of course, thought selected

643
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,680
for jury somehow the 12 people,
like of all people, there's

644
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,440
probably 150 to start.
How did I get narrowed down?

645
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,600
So he represents himself, gives
us a whole story, full lies.

646
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,320
You know that he didn't do it,
whatever.

647
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,960
And then they bring in witnesses
and, you know, they're really

648
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,000
sparing us the gruesome details,
I think because for the first

649
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,800
day, it's just witnesses talking
about how this guy didn't show

650
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,280
up to work.
So at the end of day one, I'm

651
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:02,120
thinking, well, I don't know if
he did anything.

652
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,400
I didn't see any evidence.
And you know, you're supposed to

653
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,160
have an open mind about it.
Well, the next morning we come

654
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,720
in and you have to report there
at 8:30 or whatever it is.

655
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,000
It's 93010301130, and we're
still in the locked room, not

656
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,000
having been brought into the
courtroom.

657
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:21,200
So 11:30 they bring us in and
Mr. I'm representing myself is

658
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,080
not there.
And so he confessed that morning

659
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:25,640
and I guess they worked
something out with him and

660
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,000
obviously he went to prison.
But all that to say, it was very

661
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,040
interesting to see as someone on
jury duty, a man represent

662
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,600
himself and give us this whole
speech about how he didn't do

663
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,400
this murder and it was full
lies.

664
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,320
And the state of South Carolina
on the other hand, who was going

665
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,520
against him came up and gave us
a short 2 minutes.

666
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:45,480
Hey, this is a clear and easy
case.

667
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:46,560
We have all the evidence we
need.

668
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,600
This should be pretty quick.
So it was a fun experience to

669
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,800
say the least.
But to answer that question,

670
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,760
even as someone on jury duty, I
did get to see lie right in

671
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,040
front of us.
I guess have have you ever

672
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:00,200
worked any cases where you
couldn't tell if they were lying

673
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,720
or not?
And it's just like you're

674
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,160
there's so much uncertainty, you
don't know if you prosecute them

675
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:06,280
or not.
Yeah, I mean, so as a

676
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,640
prosecutor, your your goal is
really, really different from

677
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,400
the stuff that I do now, the
stuff Ashley does now.

678
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,960
So Ashley kind of hit the nail
on the head talking about what

679
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:17,920
we do now is we are retained to
advocate for someone's position.

680
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,520
So as a prosecutor, your job is
not to advocate for the state's

681
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,400
position.
Your job is to get it right.

682
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,120
Your job is to do justice,
truly, as prosecutors.

683
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:32,160
So the most difficult thing is
when you're sitting down and

684
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,080
you're going through these files
and you're looking at the

685
00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,080
evidence and you're reviewing
some of the testimony, you

686
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,800
think, I really don't know if
this guy did it.

687
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:42,680
Burden proof in Criminal Court
is beyond a reasonable doubt.

688
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:44,440
It's the highest burden that we
have in this country.

689
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:48,560
That's a huge bar.
So there were lots of cases that

690
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:51,000
I would just look at and say,
I'm not comfortable prosecuting

691
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,720
this because AI don't know if
the guy did it, but I sure as

692
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,240
heck can't meet that burden of
proof.

693
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,760
So doing what I do now is it's
more difficult if you have just,

694
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,360
you know, like a like a simple
car wreck case where each party

695
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:03,680
is like, oh, no, I had the green
light.

696
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,120
That's when it gets complicated
because you sit down.

697
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,239
It's like I I really don't know
who's telling the truth about

698
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:11,280
this. 1.
Did you ever find yourself you'd

699
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,560
already taken the case?
And yeah, yeah, yeah, I've done

700
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,040
that about.
Drop it or what happens?

701
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,239
You can.
I mean, generally speaking, I'll

702
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,760
just kind of roll the dice with
it and and see what happens.

703
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,760
And what I've kind of found more
interesting is I truly don't

704
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,920
think in most of these
circumstances that people are

705
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,080
lying.
I think they really and truly do

706
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,679
believe their version of the
facts.

707
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:34,760
You know, there is no doubt in
my mind that this lady believes

708
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,080
that she had the green light and
so does the other lady.

709
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,080
One of them's obviously wrong,
but that doesn't necessarily

710
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,719
mean that they're lying.
And that's, that was a, that's a

711
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,280
revelation that I had in the
last couple trials that I did.

712
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,520
Jeez, yeah, people can like,
form their own realities per SE.

713
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,840
Which you probably see that too.
I was gonna say that's pretty.

714
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,320
Par for the course in the Family
Court.

715
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:59,400
Well, because a lot of when you
come down to who's the better

716
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:03,400
parent, that's so subjective.
And like I already said earlier,

717
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:09,880
what the court sees thankfully
is a lot worse than what a lot

718
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:15,440
of my clients have dealt with.
Some have, but again, thankfully

719
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,600
most of them not in that
situation.

720
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,440
So to say who's better in this
position, it's very subjective

721
00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:25,000
and it's going to come down to
that judge at that point on

722
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:26,240
what's convincing to them or
not.

723
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,000
Yeah, that's interesting.
That is a lot.

724
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,200
So Ryan, you've at this point
now done criminals, criminal

725
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,320
defense, criminal prosecution,
you've done injuries and now

726
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:37,920
you're on your most recent
venture.

727
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,200
Can you dive into that a little
bit for us and share with us?

728
00:35:40,240 --> 00:35:43,960
Absolutely.
As of May 1 of this year, my own

729
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,560
law practice, it's Alderson Law.
Congratulations.

730
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,160
Thank you very much.
Like I mentioned to you before

731
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,000
we started doing this, I think
in the last two weeks I've

732
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,480
practiced about 20 minutes a
lot.

733
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,680
I've moved a lot of furniture
and we've done a lot of

734
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,400
painting.
Where's your office like?

735
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,800
It's on Whitsett St., OK, 12
Whitsett if anybody wants to

736
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,240
come back.
But yeah, I'm looking forward to

737
00:36:04,240 --> 00:36:06,040
getting back into the practice
of law.

738
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,480
And what we're primarily going
to focus on is wrongful death,

739
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:11,760
catastrophic injury and injury
to children.

740
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,160
So the really light, fluffy
stuff.

741
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:16,200
But it is, it's the important
stuff.

742
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:17,120
I mean, it's the important
stuff.

743
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,000
And it's the stuff that you
know, kind of gets you going in

744
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:23,720
the morning or, or makes you
realize that these are the folks

745
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:27,000
that need the most help.
So I enjoy that.

746
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,520
To the extent you can enjoy
subject matter like that, I do

747
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,760
enjoy those cases.
And are you in the process, I

748
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,240
guess, of building out your
staff and what that looks like

749
00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:36,800
with your firm?
Yeah, currently I am the

750
00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,480
receptionist, the file runner
I'm.

751
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:41,680
The.
Paralegal.

752
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,320
I'm the secretary.
So yeah, I mean, if you if you

753
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,680
call Alderson Law, I'm like
Alderson Law, but you know, it's

754
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:48,920
it's going to be me talking on
the phone.

755
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,640
Alderson Law is ready for Ryan.
Yeah, exactly.

756
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,680
But yeah, the the process is,
you know, kind of starting at

757
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,440
small, obviously just me and
then looking to grow out here in

758
00:36:57,440 --> 00:36:59,760
the next couple months and then
of course over the next several

759
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,320
years.
Yeah, but who knows, maybe you

760
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,000
end up adding family law one
day.

761
00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:05,400
You could have a family law run
shall be fine with that.

762
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,040
And Ashley, tell us a little bit
about where you're at in your

763
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:09,720
firm.
They're a partner at your firm

764
00:37:09,720 --> 00:37:10,240
is that?
Correct.

765
00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:13,600
I am, yes.
My law firm is named

766
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,280
Christophilis and Gallivan.
I work with two great other

767
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,720
attorneys, Jessica Christophilis
and Amanda Gallivan.

768
00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:25,240
I think they started the firm.
Oh, I don't know how long ago at

769
00:37:25,240 --> 00:37:29,120
this point, but I was made a
partner with them this past

770
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:30,440
fall.
Congratulations.

771
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,200
Thank you.
Thank you.

772
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,720
Yeah, we practice solely family
law, just focused in on it.

773
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,840
But yeah, 33 attorneys there, 3
paralegals, office manager,

774
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,160
great group.
That's great.

775
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,960
Now, you also might not be able
to dive into this one too much.

776
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:49,680
Actually I was going to ask,
what advice would you have for

777
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:51,880
studying for the LSAT?
Yes.

778
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:53,360
No.
I don't have to purchase the

779
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,600
book.
Get something.

780
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:00,600
I can give you advice on that
study, study for the test.

781
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,120
Yes, because and what I mean by
that is it is I think the most

782
00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:08,160
bizarre I'll fitting graduate
program test that there is

783
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,120
because I truly don't think it
has anything to do with the

784
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:11,120
practice law.
It doesn't.

785
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:14,880
And, and I think if you just
look at it as all right, this is

786
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,120
a game, I need to learn the
rules of this game and I'm going

787
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,160
to do it just like that.
I think that's when you'll have

788
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,880
the most success in doing it.
If I'm right, they do refer to a

789
00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,080
section of it as the game.
So they're yeah, they're they're

790
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:31,280
logic problems.
So like if if Ashley wants to

791
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,680
sit next to Ryan, but she can't
sit next to Christina, but Heath

792
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,800
has to sit here, where can
Ashley sit?

793
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,520
So it's those kind of word
problems, but it is they give

794
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,080
you all the information that you
need on the test.

795
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,040
So when Ryan says learn how to
take the test, that's it.

796
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:48,920
Learn what it is they want out
of you.

797
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,040
As far as the other information
goes, you don't have to have too

798
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,120
much background knowledge on any
certain subject.

799
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,400
Which I imagine there's study
programs that you can purchase

800
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,760
to kind of help you along the
way outside of going to law

801
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,280
school, OK.
And I can also tell you that the

802
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:05,680
OR the, yeah, the last time that
I thought about the LSAT was

803
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,800
probably the day that I took it
or the day we got the results

804
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,800
until today.
So that's one of those that.

805
00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:13,680
I understand that.
Lots of licenses in my industry,

806
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:15,880
same thing.
You take the test and you do

807
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,360
what you need to do for a job.
To piggyback off of that though,

808
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,080
what advice would you give to
someone that's considering a

809
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,280
career in law school?
Are there any internships or

810
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,560
books they should be reading or
people they should talk to as

811
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:29,280
they think about Is law school
for me?

812
00:39:29,720 --> 00:39:32,440
Yeah, so internships are kind of
tough because, you know, you can

813
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,760
be a law clerk when you're
actually in law school and

814
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:35,840
they'll let you do a lot more
stuff.

815
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,280
That said, there still are
collegiate internships that you

816
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,600
can do.
I'm kind of a Homer, but I would

817
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,000
recommend the solicitor's
office.

818
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,200
I know that we had a handful of
college interns down there.

819
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,760
I think that gives you great
exposure to that kind of work.

820
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,320
And they do let you, you know,
watch court and do that kind of

821
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,200
thing.
But as far as like deciding on

822
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,280
the career path of practicing
law, I think I think you should

823
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,560
need to really sit down and kind
of evaluate, you know, where do

824
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,840
you see yourself in five years
and kind of what do you want to

825
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:01,720
do?
As we talked about at the

826
00:40:01,720 --> 00:40:04,480
beginning, I don't necessarily
think that you need to have a

827
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,840
type of law that you want to
practice, but I do think that

828
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,480
you need to want to be a lawyer
and everything that goes in with

829
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,040
that.
It's not the kind of thing that

830
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,040
I think you should take as a
well, I don't really know what

831
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:18,520
else I'm going to do.
So I might as well apply to law

832
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:20,120
school.
I think I think that can

833
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:23,600
absolutely work out.
I think that can work out for

834
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,040
some people.
But I think by and large, yeah,

835
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,040
I think by and large, you, you
really need to kind of decide

836
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,120
that because it is commitment.
I mean, it's a financial

837
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:32,480
commitment, it's a time
commitment.

838
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,040
So I think it's important to
figure out, is this really for

839
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,000
me sort of before you plunge
into that?

840
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,520
That's a great response and then
we'll close on this last note,

841
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,560
but you should not go into law
if dot dot dot.

842
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,400
If you're lazy, if you're lazy,
if you're looking to make it

843
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,800
quick buck or something, I'm
sure that there are ways to do

844
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,200
it.
I'm sure people do do that, but.

845
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,560
Something overly glamorous.
It's not like TV.

846
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,200
It's not like Suits don't watch
suits and decide I'm going to

847
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,240
law school or don't decide to
practice law like he did without

848
00:41:03,240 --> 00:41:05,080
going to law school and passing
the bar.

849
00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:07,520
Right, right.
If it's anything like my jury

850
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,840
duty case, then go for it.
No, it's an interesting one.

851
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,280
Go represent yourself in your
own murder trial.

852
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,400
I have at it, but don't think
there's not.

853
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,760
Anybody.
As the only criminal guy in the

854
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:23,200
room, I do not recommend that.
Disclosure, right?

855
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,160
Nothing in this podcast is meant
to be taken as legal advice.

856
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,840
That's a fair disclaimer coming
from 2 attorneys.

857
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:30,280
Well, Ryan, Ashley, thank you so
much.

858
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:31,280
For doing that.