Dr. Ryan Mullins: Inside the Mind of a Sales Strategist | EP 22

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What do you think, Sales?
Most people get a bad taste in

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their mouth, right?
I was naive and impatient, young

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and wanting to do something
more.

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Front facing, customer facing.
You have to customize and

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understand people do less but do
it with excellence.

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I think cold call is its own
unique thing because you are a

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true interruption value is not
coming into a conversation

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saying we're going to help your
company grow revenue in the

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morning.
If you're a salesperson, selling

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a product you don't believe
helps the customer get out.

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Growing a small to mid sized
business is like pushing a stop

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train.
You're going to need help to get

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that initial momentum going.
Administrative tasks like

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payroll, managing health
insurance, and HR operations

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only add unnecessary weight to
your already busy schedule.

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That's why I'd choose Questco.
They take care of all the behind

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the scenes administrative and HR
work, letting you focus on what

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truly matters, growing your
business.

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Questco is your trusted
outsourcing HR service provider

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to help you get that train
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That's QUESTCO.
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call your local Quest Co
representative, Thomas Owens at

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864-477-0843 to get started
today.

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Ryan, thanks so much for joining
me today.

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Today's best is a doctor, Ryan
Mullins.

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He's an accomplished professor,
author and consultant, currently

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serving as the Director of the
Clemson Sales Innovation

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Program.
His classes are fuelled by real

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world insights as extensive
research and consulting work

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with companies across the United
States and around the globe.

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A recognized expert in both
sales and marketing, Doctor

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Mullins has earned more than a
dozen awards and his outstanding

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contributions to the field.
Again, thanks so much for being

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here.
It's going to be a lot of fun

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talking.
To you, great.

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Thank you for the invitation.
I obviously you're, you're an

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expert in sales and marketing
and we'll dive into that as we

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go.
But what really sparked your

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interest in business?
Because you went to your

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undergrad in aerospace
engineering, So what kind of

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myth sparked that transition?
So I was an aerospace engineer

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Once Upon a time, another life
ago seems like.

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Went to work for Boeing out in
Seattle with the the big plane

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hanger, moving the planes along
lines, all that good stuff.

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And was really taken by the idea
of commercialization, like just

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really understanding why, why,
why does an airline buy a

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certain plane or these features
on a plane.

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And I got as close as I could as
an engineer could to that

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process, right?
We called it a performance

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engineer and I supported a lot
of campaigns and got to see the

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sales process going to get
worked out.

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And then just seeing the
differences of how selling the

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single, the same plane to
different airlines, different

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cultures.
I mean, we met with people from

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across the Pacific and multiple
airlines over there and just I

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learned all these different
customs of exchanging gifts and

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bowing in certain ways.
And I just found it so

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fascinating of how you have to
customize and understand people

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so much in order to create value
for them in order to really get

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a deal done.
And I wanted to be more of a

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part of that which was not in my
role, right?

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Not in my my.
My engineering role was very

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much desk ridden.
Yeah, definitely.

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I did a lot of PowerPoint, I did
a lot of number crunching and

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getting technical specs into
PowerPoint.

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And so I, I got a lot of
practice translating, you know,

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technical specifications into
something that would make a

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pitch deck, right.
But I wanted to be the one

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actually presenting it and how.
Did you make that transition

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into one, into presenting it and
into the sales?

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I would say that was a longer
journey because I I wouldn't say

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I had that skill set right
offhand.

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I.
Mean you're a natural people

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person.
You can.

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I mean conversation.
I would say that I went.

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So I went back and got my MBA.
At the time, I really was pretty

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pigeonholed at Boeing, the
career trajectory to do what I

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wanted to do as a 10 year
pathway.

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And I was naive and impatient
young and wanting to do

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something more front facing,
customer facing.

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And so I thought I'd go back and
get my MBA and really, and

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there's actually some
specialties in sales and service

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when I was doing that.
And that started getting me to

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actually study how organizations
and how people are trained.

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And actually, it's very
systematic, right?

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I mean, it's a really, there's a
way to go about doing sales.

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Yeah.
And, and, and interacting with

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customers.
And that's what really got my

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juices flowing.
I'm finding a lot of

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similarities in like 25 year old
or late late 20s.

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You and me because I'm currently
in engineering and want to do

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more customer facing stuff.
I've talked about trying to get

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into more of the products roles
and trying to see what that

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looks like.
Currently doing my MBA at Chapel

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Hill, so I'm definitely going to
dive in and try to dig, get

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every bit of this out of.
OK, but you went to, was it A&M

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that you did your MBA?
Was that pretty applicable?

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How soon after you got the
degree did you find you were

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able to use the stuff you were
learning?

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So that was another interesting
turn in my career.

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So at the time, I thought that
the best way for me to be that

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sales focus was to be a
consultant.

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I thought that was the best
combination of my skill sets,

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right?
Good analytical skills, good

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interpersonal skills, and I
thought the combination of those

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two to a consulting career,
absolutely.

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Was Mathworks, Yes.
I mean, I thought, oh, this,

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this is what I wanted to do.
And I, through the discovery of

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just looking into these roles,
interviewing, I, I just didn't

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have a feeling that was what I
was being called to do.

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I think some of it was a
lifestyle and long term what my

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lifestyle, what I wanted it to
be.

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And I think there were some
conflicts.

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Is it due to like the travel
with consulting?

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Yeah, yeah.
Because I know it's like insane

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travel in hours.
Well, you know, you're hearing

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when you're in.
They were very frank about it

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during the interview process,
but it was very much, hey, we'll

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put you in Poughkeepsie, you
know, some, you know, Kalamazoo

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for nine months.
You'll be there in a extended

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stay for a while and supporting
the client, and you'll go over

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to, I don't know, Cleveland for
six months.

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And I was like, well, you know,
were you there the other time

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or?
No, I wasn't.

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I wasn't.
I think I just always had family

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as a priority.
I just knew that was going to be

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a priority.
That wouldn't work.

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Yeah.
And I should have a good feeling

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about it.
And Long story short, I talked

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with a lot of my professors and
they said, well, you should

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think about being an academic.
And I, you know, my eyes went

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really big.
And I said, well, how do I do

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that?
I'd really had no clue.

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And it's the way you go back to
school.

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I kind of.
I stopped, Yeah.

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I never had ever pictured myself
getting a pH.

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D ever.
No.

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And but the way they talk to me
about the variety of roles you

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when you get to be an academic,
the variety of roles, the

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autonomy you have in your time,
the ability to be a consultant

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and work on projects, Yeah, I
mean, it really, it really has

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become my dream job.
I mean, I, I love, I love what I

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do.
So that's the road of getting to

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to PhD and and onward into
academia.

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So now that you are in academia,
you have to balance teaching,

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writing, consulting, research,
all these things while also

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being the father of three
eight-year olds and a husband.

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How do you balance all of this?
So I don't know if you've ever

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do you ever listen to Calumny
report?

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You know who I'm not kidding.
So he he's computer science guy

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at Georgetown, but he's a he's a
book author, very famous book

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author.
Yeah, very famous book author is

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a great podcast.
I really resonate with something

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he says when it comes to
balance.

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And it's I really try to do
less, but do it with excellence.

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And I think that alongside my
wife Adrian, who is very much

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keeps me very humble about hey,
work is we joke one of our

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favorite jokes that she says,
you know, you're you're a

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doctor, but you're not a medical
doctor.

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So there might be a marketing
emergency, but it could probably

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be solved.
It could probably be solved on

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Monday, right?
So we've always made a very

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conscious agreement that I keep
my work hours between 9:00 and

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5:00.
And so that changes my priority

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system for getting things done
right.

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And then also I think having to
be very cognizant about choose,

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I can only do a limited a number
of things.

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Yeah.
And so it really makes you think

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right about what what's going to
matter?

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What should I put my time
towards?

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What's going to matter?
I'm going to do it really well.

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I'm going to do it excellent.
But what's going to really

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matter?
What are we going to in five

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years, right?
What am I actually going to be

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pretty proud of, right?
I think it's real easy to get

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caught up in every new little
thing that pops up, every new

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little opportunity.
That attack to me is where I

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think it gets hard to do all of
those things on that list

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because one, you're going to
start feeling guilty because

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you're not doing things as well
as you want, right?

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There's you.
You're like, oh, you know, I

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shipped that off, but you know.
It's not a best work.

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Yeah, and and you're, you're
hurting, you're you're

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potentially damaging
relationships, right.

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I mean, you don't want to damage
the trust you have with the

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deliverables if you're given,
you're giving to somebody.

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And so that's it's I definitely,
it's hard because I'm a pretty

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competitive person.
And so it's hard some days to

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see.
And I love seeing what everybody

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else is doing and it's exciting
to see, but it is hard some days

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to kind of sit there and say,
well, I would love to be as

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productive as that.
That would, but what?

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At what cost?
What is the cost?

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That's right, that's right.
So I, I think it's having those

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priorities balanced and also I
think having seasonality I think

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is really helpful.
So I think for for me, I, I tend

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to focus a lot of my time.
I do a teaching semester in the

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fall.
So that's a really programmatic

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heavy.
Teaching when you teach.

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OK, so your classes are the.
Fall, that's right.

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That's really heavy programmatic
for our program and then

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teaching in the fall and then
that gets me to kind of be able

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to pour out that energy towards
teaching really fully in the

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fall.
And then I switch gears into the

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spring and a much more research
and consultant focused really

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looking projects, kind of
spinning my wheels there.

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And it's a good, it's a great
way to kind of switch gears,

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take time, reflect and and
readjust.

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Yeah.
Yeah.

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So one of your major
responsibilities is the being

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the director of the Clemson
innovation program.

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So they call it the SIP sales
innovation.

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Program, that's right, yeah, so.
Were you one of the help helpers

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that like helped start that?
Because it hasn't been around

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for that long.
I was, yeah, it was.

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It's quite, it's quite a journey
to get there.

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So I was hired in 2012 at
Clemson and the whole time I was

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really hired there to incubate
and grow what you would say is a

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sales program.
At the time we had a, you know,

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a few classes.
I think we offered three

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classes.
That was it.

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That was it, 3 sales and I mean
we probably had, you know, even

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we had a required class with one
of those, but you know, the rest

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of the electives, maybe 20, some
students went through it.

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I just knew we could do a lot
more.

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I knew there was.
If you actually, if you go just

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across the United States, like
one in every nine careers or

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professionals is a salesperson
in some kind of sales career.

229
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Right.
So there's the numbers of people

230
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that go into sales, a sales
related career name it, that

231
00:12:09,560 --> 00:12:13,000
have sales on the title, right?
Is so many people, right?

232
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So I know we have a huge alumni
base.

233
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I know we have so many companies
that have all these people.

234
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,080
How can we rally around this?
What can we do?

235
00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,800
And a chain of events happened
that really offered us the

236
00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,200
opportunity to found the program
in 2019.

237
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,160
Or those chain of events.
So I had been pushing for the

238
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,160
program for several years and
kind of had some of the pieces

239
00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,760
in place.
But it's hard, as with any new

240
00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:44,000
initiative, it can be really
hard to get all the people

241
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,200
aligned.
And it's change management,

242
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:47,640
right?
It's really, it's, it's big time

243
00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,320
change management.
And I'd say I probably had some

244
00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,520
missteps even in the early days
of, you know, trying to get

245
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:53,560
things aligned.
It was hard.

246
00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:59,360
But I think with those efforts,
we we created awareness about

247
00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:03,800
what we wanted to do.
And a donor, actually his name

248
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:09,120
is Dan Garrison and his wife
Nancy, they actually came on

249
00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,800
board to to endow us and give us
some additional seed funding.

250
00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,960
And that really was the kick
start for us.

251
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,680
And it gave us the safety to,
you know, start doing some

252
00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:24,360
programming without us, you
know, all the pressure of having

253
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,080
to be revenue generating route
to start.

254
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,680
We have a great Dean that New
York that's also, you know, kind

255
00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:34,160
of supported us along the way
there to get us going and so.

256
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,760
How long was the process of
getting it going from idea to

257
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:40,080
actually getting the first class
or so launched with it?

258
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,840
So pretty, I'd say nine months,
that's it.

259
00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:47,560
Nine months.
Well, like I said, I had a lot

260
00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:49,680
we would.
I've been doing a lot in the

261
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:52,160
background.
OK, I had a.

262
00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:53,320
Lot, yeah.
So we had a lot of

263
00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:58,160
relationships.
We've been nurturing and I had

264
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,760
to make AI, had to make some
asks for fellow, some fellow

265
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,280
faculty.
So you essentially with me.

266
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:05,880
You kind of pioneered launching
the program.

267
00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:10,960
Yes, yeah, yeah, No, I, I pushed
it hard and I had a couple

268
00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,560
faculty that I approached and
asked.

269
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,360
I said, hey, I want to jump and
do this, this thing, right.

270
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:21,920
It's I don't it, you know, right
now it's very much a vision.

271
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,600
But I want you to, I think you
are well suited to do it.

272
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,400
This is Carter Mcelveen and
Kevin Chase.

273
00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,840
They were with me at the time
and I'm very fortunate.

274
00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:34,560
They said, let's, let's do it,
let's jump in.

275
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:36,840
And which meant a lot of outside
the cloud.

276
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:38,480
You know, we're doing events at
night.

277
00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,760
We're doing competitions and
traveling around.

278
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:41,560
What?
Were some of those first

279
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:43,680
competitions y'all did?
So.

280
00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:45,480
What is what do these
competitions look like?

281
00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:47,720
Yeah.
So I'll give you a kind of a

282
00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:54,600
sense of what the program is.
So really the program is a group

283
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,560
of faculty and students where
our mission is to elevate the

284
00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,680
sales profession, right?
When you think of sales, most

285
00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:02,320
people get a bad taste in their
mouth, right?

286
00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:05,600
I mean they think kiosk
salesperson that's coming up to

287
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:06,680
them in the.
Mall.

288
00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:09,120
Yeah, or somebody in the mall is
like, hey, you want to smell

289
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,480
good today?
And you're like, oh, you're

290
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,600
like, oh, don't give me these
forced questions, right?

291
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,320
Or these, you know, leading
questions, what we're trying to

292
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,760
do right is really help students
understand the strategic and

293
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,160
critical thinking nature and
problem solving nature of what

294
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,200
true sales really is, right?
And so, so we do that through a

295
00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,520
series of classes.
So we have 5 different classes

296
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,920
that we offer now, spanning from
advanced topics to management

297
00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:34,520
and even into healthcare sales.
All of.

298
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,760
Them I have taught almost all of
them.

299
00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:40,320
I depends on the semester.
I think at this point I'm just

300
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:41,840
teaching our advanced sailing
class.

301
00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:47,400
We have a, we have a team of 6
faculty members now all teaching

302
00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:48,720
in these classes.
It's great.

303
00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,160
But I think the biggest thing I
cite to me is kind of you

304
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,600
alluded to the competition this
all of our outside the classroom

305
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:56,960
stuff.
So students are doing things

306
00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,680
like 60 second pitch
competitions where they're

307
00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:03,160
they're pitching themselves to
partners companies.

308
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,320
But why they should get hired?
Like why they should be hired

309
00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:07,080
right now?
Have you had any of the Kenga

310
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,560
guys come back and I.
Haven't I need to have them come

311
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,520
the ultimate We are we're in the
works right now of debating a

312
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,200
Shark Tank style competition.
So they, they would be, you

313
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:19,280
know, really well suited for.
That, yeah, very experienced

314
00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:19,920
with it.
Yeah.

315
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,480
So we've got that.
We've got like, I don't know how

316
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,560
familiar you are with role
plays, but we do a role play

317
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:30,160
competition where you would be a
buyer, right, of a, you know,

318
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,080
potentially big software.
I.

319
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,000
Bet you have, yeah.
And so they'll have to run of 10

320
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,480
to 15 minute sales call with
that, with that scenario and

321
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,800
they'll compete and get judged.
Yeah, and they get different

322
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,200
points for how the deal works
out.

323
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:44,120
Those are fun.
That's right.

324
00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:46,640
That's right.
So we do lots of things like

325
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:48,120
that.
Some of them are more virtual

326
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,640
digital, you know like a
LinkedIn cold e-mail

327
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:53,840
competition.
We call that a social selling

328
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,440
competition.
It's really we're trying to mock

329
00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,360
up everything they would do
right in a professional selling

330
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:02,880
environment.
Be competitive.

331
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:04,560
And be competitive just.
Drives.

332
00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:06,880
Even they love and we get some
cash for that, right?

333
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:08,680
They love that.
They love that.

334
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:13,800
I mean, I will say at first a
lot of people were really

335
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,720
intimidated.
The students, The students,

336
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,520
yeah.
I mean, it's a it's a lot.

337
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:22,200
It's a lot to ask a student to
go up and really put themselves

338
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:27,480
up in front of other people
which they may not look well the

339
00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:28,920
first time they've.
Never died before.

340
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:30,280
Yeah, yeah.
It's hard.

341
00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,160
It's a good point, but man, do
they come out the other side

342
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:38,520
empowered, confident and ready
to take on the world.

343
00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,080
I mean, they really, they look
like a new person after they've

344
00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,040
done, especially even the first
six months doing those

345
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,040
competitions coming out.
They're ready.

346
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:47,720
They're ready to rock.
And roll, is there such thing as

347
00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,320
like competitions between other
schools, like how there's like

348
00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,840
debate clubs?
There, there actually is, Yeah.

349
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,560
So far, our program also
participates in what we call, we

350
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,280
call them external competitions,
but they'll go compete against

351
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:00,840
other.
University on the Clemson sales

352
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:01,440
team.
That's right.

353
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:02,320
Oh, that's awesome.
Right.

354
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:04,240
Yeah.
So we have a.

355
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:07,560
You have to apply and.
Try.

356
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,440
Out you do, you have to try out
to get on team and it's a

357
00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:12,760
commitment.
It's a weekly meeting, but they

358
00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:14,520
go.
We've been going to a couple on

359
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,000
the Midwest up in Toledo and
Wisconsin.

360
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,240
There's some down in Florida
will probably go to next year.

361
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:21,600
Good for those.
It's great.

362
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:23,640
It's intense.
Well, I'm sure, but they're

363
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,760
coming out of school after
having that kind of experience

364
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,640
and going into the real world
like this is, I wouldn't say a

365
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,640
piece of cake, but potentially.
You would.

366
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,480
It's amazing how far ahead they
are.

367
00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,920
Absolutely.
They they can't, they jump and

368
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:38,720
jump ahead so quickly once they
get out.

369
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,840
What are some of the skills that
you all teach to make an

370
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,400
effective salesperson?
It's a laundry list, I would

371
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,560
like to say.
Give me the semesters of

372
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:52,440
advanced selling I.
Mean, I think there's some,

373
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,520
there's some more, I guess
universal skills we want them to

374
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,080
come away with and there's some
real specific skills, sales

375
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,520
skills, I would want them.
So adaptability, right?

376
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:06,080
Being able to develop a plan and
know you're probably going to

377
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,800
get punched in the mouth
potentially when you first,

378
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,960
especially a lot of these
students, some of them are going

379
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,000
to potentially be meeting with
AC suite executive, right?

380
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,320
That's hard.
They're they're not going to

381
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:18,760
have time to they can.
Be rude.

382
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,280
They can and it's not it's not
even intentionally rude, it's

383
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:26,400
just they're busy and you need
to demonstrate quickly.

384
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,640
You can get into there you.
Don't want to waste your

385
00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:29,560
thought, right?
Let you know.

386
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:31,880
And so some of those are going
to go really poorly.

387
00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,120
And it's so it's having that
adaptability to built in both to

388
00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:38,920
like I need to change my
approach and how I'm doing this

389
00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:40,800
and learn.
And also when I'm talking to

390
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,480
somebody, I need to read them
right, exercise that EQ and

391
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,600
understand this person's
disinterested right now or this

392
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,520
person is they're just, they're
not all here or they just set up

393
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,000
in their chair, right?
I'm on to something here.

394
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,200
So I think that's the more the
soft skills.

395
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,040
How do I, how am I kind of
reading people well and

396
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:04,680
understanding that?
And I think the other side of

397
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:07,440
it.
Is understanding what value is

398
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,520
to people.
I think value, I mean value is a

399
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,400
dangerous word, OK.
I think it gets way overused.

400
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,080
I think people don't really
understand what they mean when

401
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:16,360
they're saying it a lot of
times.

402
00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:22,160
But it's I need to know you.
If I'm selling to you, I need to

403
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,720
know you.
I need to know your business.

404
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:26,960
I need to know what role you're
in.

405
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,960
And I need to know like what
your day is like and what

406
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,840
irritates you in your days,
right?

407
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:38,000
If I know that now I can really
figure out what would be

408
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,600
valuable to this person, right?
So you're, you know, you're

409
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,120
growing this podcast, you've got
a full time job.

410
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:47,240
You probably have some things
that irritate you and and slow

411
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:49,320
you down in some ways.
Production stuff.

412
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:51,840
There you go right so I mean, I
don't sell production

413
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,200
production, but right it's it's
being able to put yourselves in

414
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,400
the shoes of that other person
and a lot it's somebody it's

415
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,560
more than empathy, right?
It's really being able to

416
00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,920
understand what, what does that
person want to get accomplished?

417
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,560
You know, and, and in their
role, some of that's personal

418
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:11,200
and some of that is
professional.

419
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,000
You can do both and understand
both.

420
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:17,040
You're going to be super well
positioned to, to talk to that

421
00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,360
person on the level they want to
be talked to, right?

422
00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:21,120
And talk about the things they
want to talk about because

423
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:24,600
that's what keeps them like,
what keeps them bothered, right?

424
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:29,440
Like, no, I tell us to my
students, value is not coming

425
00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,680
into a conversation saying we're
going to help your company grow

426
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,560
revenue in the morning.
Like that's fine.

427
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,240
Nobody gets up in the morning
and says, well, man, I really

428
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,680
hope we grow 1% today.
Like nobody gets up in the

429
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,680
morning and says that what
somebody does get up in the

430
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,720
morning and say, man, I'm
worried about my team, right?

431
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:49,320
Or gosh, these changes to some
of these regulations right now

432
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,480
are and then we're going to
these price increases, right?

433
00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:53,360
What, what are we going to do
about that?

434
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,720
Those are the things that if I
can tap into that, that mindset

435
00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,640
right now, we can have a
conversation.

436
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,280
You'll want if I can talk to you
about that and help you with

437
00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:03,720
that, you're going to want to
talk to me too.

438
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,800
Have you seen that just be the
light bulb moment where it

439
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,280
clicks for students?
I think so.

440
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,880
I think it takes some practice,
right?

441
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:18,400
I think at first it, I think
they, they take it as I find

442
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:19,960
sales to be really practical,
right?

443
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,960
And I think there used to be
things, especially at university

444
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,280
level, being very academic and
very theoretical.

445
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,840
And so you have all these great
frameworks and you have these

446
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,680
discussions about, you know,
market share and strategy.

447
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:34,120
You're in the MBA program,
you're doing all these things

448
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:37,720
right now.
I know, and sales, you get to

449
00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:41,080
see these frameworks and but you
get to do it in micro level,

450
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:42,560
right?
I'm getting to actually live

451
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,600
this out with a person.
And so once you kind of get to

452
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:50,640
see the wheels turn and you
actually see Ben, you know,

453
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,120
something come from it, We do
projects in class where they

454
00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:57,640
actually have to sell something,
you know, close the quota.

455
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,800
Once they start to see those
things happen and people, you

456
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,160
know, say yes to an ask, then
they're like, oh, oh.

457
00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:07,560
What kind of what kind of
projects are these in class

458
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:09,680
where they're having to sell?
So there's, yeah, there's two

459
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,840
that I would really highlight.
So one, we kind of take them

460
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,840
step in steps.
So in one, we have our students

461
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,480
reach out to sales leaders to
participate in a survey.

462
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,320
We call it the state of sales
survey, but it's their first

463
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:29,040
initial step to do cold
outreach, contact a sales leader

464
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:30,880
and get them to take a survey,
right.

465
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:36,440
So low stakes, but I am having
to make an ask of somebody and

466
00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:38,680
there are a skill behind that
and they get a lot of notice.

467
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,200
Yeah, definitely.
Then they get to the next class

468
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,240
with my colleague Carter, and
they're having to sell

469
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,480
sponsorships and foursomes for a
golf tournament, charity golf

470
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,520
tournament we host every year.
And now they're having to sell

471
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,960
they're they have a dollar
quota.

472
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:56,800
Yeah, they have a dollar quota
they're going to have to meet

473
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:58,440
for that class if they want to
pass.

474
00:23:59,040 --> 00:23:59,840
OK.
Right.

475
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,240
So now, now, like they're really
feeling a little bit of the

476
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:05,840
pressure.
Yeah, you got to meet your

477
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,480
quota.
And it's it's very doable, as

478
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,360
they all know, they just
finished it.

479
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,080
And but it's that moment of
truth right where they're

480
00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:16,600
they're up at Summit.
They just total stranger don't

481
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,680
know.
And they're like, hey, after

482
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:20,920
what I've shown you, what do you
think?

483
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:22,760
Yeah.
Would you like to do?

484
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,240
Would you like to sign up for
that today?

485
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,680
And they have to make that ask
and then sit there and wait and

486
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:29,000
getting through that is is
great.

487
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,440
What makes an effective cold
call or cold e-mail?

488
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:37,520
That's a different ball game.
And are these all cold where the

489
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:38,840
students are?
Or not.

490
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:43,600
So not all, not all.
I'd say we, we sparingly share

491
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:48,200
some of the warm leads.
Everybody wants those.

492
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,360
Everybody wants the ones they
had bought before.

493
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,120
There's a measure to fight over
those.

494
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:55,880
Yeah.
Cold, cold e-mail.

495
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:04,760
I'll put cold e-mail on its own
box along with, well, let's say

496
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,200
cold, let's say cold call.
Let's say cold call, right?

497
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:11,800
I think cold call is its own
unique thing because you are a

498
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,240
true interruption they're in.
The middle of something, right?

499
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,240
I mean, no matter what, they did
not expect you to.

500
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,800
Call them.
So I think what makes a good

501
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,720
cold call is getting permission
to talk about something that he

502
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:28,880
thinks going on in their
business.

503
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:33,000
I think that makes a world of
difference rather than just, you

504
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,200
know, just going through the
encyclopedia of all the features

505
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:36,240
and things you want to talk
about.

506
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,080
Nobody wants that.
They're you acknowledge you

507
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:43,880
interrupted their day and then
jump in to say, I, I apologize

508
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,160
for interrupting you right now.
And this is a cold call, But I,

509
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,400
I noticed with my research, I
think you're dealing with XYZ.

510
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,760
Is that relevant and see where
it goes.

511
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,000
Yeah.
I guess The thing is with that

512
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,520
approach, you're going to get
one of two things they're going

513
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,440
to say, yeah, actually, yeah, I
am dealing with that right now.

514
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,080
Or no, I'm not.
Either way, you know, more than

515
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:04,080
you had going in.
Yeah.

516
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:06,280
Right.
It saves time on both ends too.

517
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,240
If they're not, it's like, OK,
yeah, on the next one.

518
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,640
Yeah, e-mail.
Email's a vastly changing thing

519
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,880
with AI right now.
I mean, it's like it's different

520
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:20,640
six months ago than it is now.
So I, yeah, that's a honestly

521
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:26,840
that's a tricky 1 because it's
going to be harder and harder to

522
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,800
be as authentic and as we once
was.

523
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,520
And it's just it, you can think
you can do a program now to

524
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,720
write up an AI generated e-mail
and personalize it to some scale

525
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,120
and just send out millions,
right?

526
00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:41,640
That's, that's a, I'm not sure
where that space is going.

527
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,520
That's an interesting space to
learn about it's but I'm not

528
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:54,520
sure where it's going right now.
Thank you for spending your

529
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,120
valuable time with us.
We know you're likely incredibly

530
00:26:57,120 --> 00:26:59,680
busy and we truly appreciate you
tuning in.

531
00:27:00,120 --> 00:27:02,680
We hope you're finding these
insights just as valuable as we

532
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:04,440
are.
Throughout this journey, we've

533
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,840
been fortunate to receive
incredible support with many

534
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,160
people asking how can we help or
how can we support you?

535
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:12,320
If you haven't already, one of
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536
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,880
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537
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:17,920
or whatever platform it is
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538
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,440
It just takes a second.
You don't even have to pause the

539
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:22,320
episode.
And it makes a huge difference

540
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,120
in helping us bring to you even
more of a top tier, high

541
00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:26,520
achieving leaders in our
community.

542
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:28,760
Thank you again for being part
of this journey.

543
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:37,000
Now let's get back to our guest.
Yeah, if I feel like people now

544
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,640
are receiving cold emails and
they just assume it's from AI.

545
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:41,200
Yeah, it's.
Probably AI.

546
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,840
That's probably a good place to
start in those cases.

547
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,280
So try to make it as authentic
as possible.

548
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:47,880
Just gets past that filter,
right?

549
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,520
Because otherwise, I mean, it's,
it's pretty easy just to, to

550
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,480
kind of dump it, right.
But who are some of the current

551
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,360
like industry partners that
Clemson's working with maybe in

552
00:27:56,360 --> 00:27:58,880
the sales program or or just in
the Business School?

553
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,880
That's a great question.
One of the things that we really

554
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:07,880
strive to do in the program is
have partners unique to

555
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,400
different industries because I
think at the end of the day, I

556
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,280
want a lot of times students
don't even know about the

557
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,160
different industries that could
work in right one. 100%.

558
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:24,240
So we one of our early partners
is Arthrex, their medical

559
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,680
device.
I had their, one of their.

560
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,360
You've had some.
You've had some work.

561
00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:30,160
Yeah.
You've had a surgery.

562
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,680
You probably do.
We actually just had a a really

563
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,880
cool experience as students got
to go in with cadaveric

564
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:41,520
specimens and with a surgeon,
see them, how they put in

565
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,680
devices in a knee, shoulder and
an ankle.

566
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:45,680
It's like for medical device.
Yeah, Wow.

567
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:47,840
Yeah.
So that's been an awesome

568
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,360
partnership with with their
team.

569
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,440
So you've got the students that
are getting exposed to that

570
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,680
field for the first time.
We've got Siemens doing a lot in

571
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,960
the digital twin and
manufacturing space.

572
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,600
They're all over the place.
That's just one of the big

573
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,280
things we work with right there.
I remember them being big at a

574
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:09,960
career fair when I was a
student.

575
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:13,400
Yeah.
Well, and they're, they're, you

576
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,320
know, seeing a lot of change in
their generations at their

577
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:17,920
organization too.
So they're they're really

578
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,160
continuing to reinvest and hire
great talent.

579
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:22,880
Elevators.
How many elevators have you been

580
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,480
in?
Otis Elevators, one of our great

581
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:30,200
partners, Michelin TD Synnex.
Right down the road.

582
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,400
Right down the road, Sodan
Carlson, I mean Jonathan.

583
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,000
That's awesome.
Yes, we have about 18 or 19

584
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,560
partners, all various
industries, right.

585
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,120
And I think it speaks to the
students in different.

586
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,440
I mean, some students, you could
see them beeline for medical

587
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,560
device, right?
And other students, especially

588
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,480
after that cadaveric specimen
situation, they're like, I would

589
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,680
never want to do that.
That's what I have to do every

590
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:58,800
day.
We've had students unfortunately

591
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:03,840
have get a little dizzy, you
know, and yeah, and they have to

592
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:04,960
step out.
Yeah.

593
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,880
So just that.
And the way the program's

594
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,520
designed is they get to really
understand these industries and

595
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,520
these people that work in these
industries.

596
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,000
And so they can make an educated
decision.

597
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,840
I think more than anything you
think about the traditional

598
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,520
tried and true career fair
interview process.

599
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,840
Wow, that's tough.
It's, you're going to, you're

600
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:26,760
going to, you know, at least
commit a year of your life,

601
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:28,600
let's say that for your first
job, right?

602
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,720
And you're going to do that
based on a 5 minute conversation

603
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:32,720
at a career fair and then
another interview.

604
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:35,520
You know, in many cases that's
what's happening.

605
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:37,760
And I'm like that's, that's,
that's a lot to make one

606
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:40,000
decision on big decision.
Especially if you have to

607
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,480
relocate your.
Yeah.

608
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,720
So we're, we're all about, hey,
let's build bridges, right with

609
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,840
these different organizations
over the time, like you're a

610
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,120
sophomore and you're a junior,
get to know these companies, get

611
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,960
to know these people working
there and make great decisions

612
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,400
about where you want to go.
What a fantastic opportunity for

613
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,280
all the students there.
We're excited.

614
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,160
We're a lot of students seem to
are catching on to it for sure.

615
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,360
So you're also very well versed
an expert in the marketing

616
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,000
field.
So what would you say are the

617
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,720
keys to effective marketing?
Man, So I'll be real honest with

618
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,200
you, Heath, I'm a, I'm a sales
guy, right so.

619
00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,440
Your PhD was marketing.
It is, but I'm a sales

620
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,800
specialist, right?
So everything I study is sales

621
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:26,840
management or sales version
performance now.

622
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,440
What what prompted your move
from marketing to sales?

623
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:33,560
Yeah.
So I think, again, it really

624
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:39,480
came to this discovery of I, I
think for the longest time I was

625
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:43,200
mystified by how some sellers
were better than others.

626
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,240
And and it's like, it can't just
be charisma, right?

627
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,200
It just can't.
There's just no way.

628
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,800
And there is some of that there,
definitely.

629
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,840
And I think what got me into it
is really understanding there is

630
00:31:54,840 --> 00:32:01,840
a process and a science behind
sales and putting systems in

631
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:06,240
place to build it at scale.
Is it specific to an industry?

632
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,960
It can be, I mean it changes as
industries evolve, but you'll

633
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,480
see, I mean, if you go in a
particular industry, certain

634
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,680
ways of going to market.
So I'll go, I'll put my

635
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,160
marketing hat on right certain
way.

636
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:19,840
So you have a go to market
strategy, right?

637
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:21,840
And you've got different, you've
got all kinds of different

638
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:23,000
channels.
Some of that Channel is all

639
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,640
online, some of that Channel is
retail, but sometimes that

640
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:32,440
Channel is you need an expert
that can call on a customer and

641
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,520
really explain to them how you
can help them grow their

642
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,920
business.
And that can't be accomplished

643
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,480
through just what's on the
website, signing up for a

644
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,840
webinar, all valuable things in
marketing, right?

645
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,760
But I'm really interested in
that.

646
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,640
What is the people component of
how we go to market?

647
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,040
And that's where sales comes in
Got.

648
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,800
You would you say that the
salesperson is more important or

649
00:32:55,800 --> 00:33:02,880
the products or service?
I will dodge your question and

650
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:09,600
I'll say, I'll say if you're a
salesperson selling a product

651
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:15,840
you don't believe helps the
customer get out OK, because

652
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,680
that is a, you're not going to
want to be there, right.

653
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,960
So I think you do have to start
with something that helps, that

654
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:30,080
helps your customer if you don't
have that lined out and that's

655
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:31,960
hard for a startup, right to
kind of sometimes you're

656
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,520
figuring those things out.
But OK, I think when we were

657
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,400
starting our program, you know,
we didn't have anything

658
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,360
established.
Some some days I felt.

659
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,400
Like I was a startup I.
Was just selling air, you know,

660
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,240
well, this is what I want to do.
Are you on board?

661
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,720
And so I think it's it's it's a
combination, right?

662
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,160
I do.
But I think for most companies,

663
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,400
if you're existing for several
years, you've got something

664
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,760
working right, your product does
something to help customer,

665
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:01,080
otherwise you wouldn't be there
at that point.

666
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:02,480
I do think it's about
salespeople.

667
00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,640
I do.
It's about understanding

668
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,000
customer, it's about evolving,
it's about understanding your

669
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,000
market.
And I think that's hard.

670
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:18,600
It's hard, it moves fast, and I
think for your smaller

671
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,239
organizations that are trying to
grow, that is the that's the one

672
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,440
of the biggest, hardest jumps to
make because you're going from

673
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:27,800
this every hour, jumping into
every opportunity.

674
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,679
Everybody's wearing a lot of
hats to we have to get

675
00:34:30,679 --> 00:34:33,320
disciplined now.
We've got to get really

676
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,800
systematic about how we're going
to do this and be consistent

677
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,000
with our messaging pricing.
I'd like to put you in a

678
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,239
scenario.
Let's put your entrepreneur hat

679
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:42,639
all.
Right.

680
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:46,199
And you're a your startup and
you're about to make your first

681
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:47,000
sale.
OK.

682
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,000
Are you going to invest more in
creating an awesome product or

683
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,400
invest more in getting awesome
salespeople?

684
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:56,760
MMM, you say awesome, you say
awesome.

685
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:02,120
You know, I think you can do a
lot with with a an average

686
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,160
product that gets things done
and a great sales force.

687
00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:10,880
OK, I'll tell you why, because I
think nobody is going to

688
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,960
innovate faster than somebody
that can get feedback from

689
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,600
customers, actually use new
products, OK.

690
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:21,680
So I think the more you can get,
and this is where it's really

691
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,600
important, you get your
salespeople that can actually

692
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,320
learn, talk to customer support,
understand, manage those

693
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:30,360
accounts, change adaptability,
having all those things in place

694
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:35,640
and being ready to change,
upgrade product, I think that's

695
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,640
a good recipe for success.
Nothing is going to work

696
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,920
forever, even if you thought it
was awesome to start with,

697
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:46,480
right?
So I would say, you know,

698
00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:48,840
minimum viable product, right?
We're, you know, we're talking

699
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,920
about entrepreneurial space,
minimum viable product.

700
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,640
Get your sales force, get it in
the hands of customers, and then

701
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,240
buckle up because now it's going
to be the time.

702
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,600
Yeah, but lots of feedback.
Get in with your accounts,

703
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,760
support those accounts, those
initial, you know, those first

704
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,360
50 customers, those are your
babies, right?

705
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:11,960
You should be on, you know, on
the on the pathway with them and

706
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,840
the whole time saying we're
going to make, let's make this

707
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:15,520
fix, let's make this better.
Thanks for that feedback.

708
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:17,040
That's right.
That'd be mine, I think.

709
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,240
That's a great response.
Yeah, that's awesome.

710
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,520
If you were making the very
first sale for a company like,

711
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,440
hey, this is the first time,
we've never sold this before,

712
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,080
how would you approach that with
a customer?

713
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:33,040
I mean, so that's kind of sales
less about the product and more

714
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:34,360
about the person.
The relationship.

715
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:35,920
Right.
Yeah, absolutely.

716
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:39,840
I mean, that's, that's a, that's
a pure trust sale, right?

717
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:43,080
Because you are, you are, you
are selling, you're selling a

718
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,040
vision.
You're selling a vision.

719
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:50,320
I, I saw I'll hearken back to my
when I was talking with, when

720
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,920
Dan Garrison was interested in
supporting our program, he said

721
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,120
he invited me to come out to
Houston and I meant I got to

722
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,040
meet him and I really thought it
was going to be a, you know,

723
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:02,920
meet and greet.
I kind of tell him a few things

724
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,720
that we're going to do and then
I'll, you know, head back to

725
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:07,000
Clemson and we'll see what
happens.

726
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:10,080
Right.
Well, we, you know, we go, we

727
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:12,800
and out of Houston, you always
go for Tex Mex.

728
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:17,160
So we got over to Tex Mex
restaurant and we're sitting

729
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:18,440
there having, you know, having
dinner.

730
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,560
And he just point blank says,
tell me what you're going to do

731
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:22,920
and why you should do it that
way.

732
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:29,800
And I said, OK, so.
And I, I gave him really my

733
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,120
pitch and about why I was
passionate about it and what I

734
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,600
thought was missing and why I
thought getting invested in the

735
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,400
right people.
And I told him the whole time I

736
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:40,840
was like Ritz about getting the
right.

737
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,400
We have all the things to make
it happen.

738
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:43,640
It's just about getting right
people.

739
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,080
And that was to me, that was the
best example I can give you of

740
00:37:48,240 --> 00:37:51,280
where I've been in a situation
where I didn't really have it to

741
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:55,360
sell right.
I had the idea, but I mean, he I

742
00:37:55,520 --> 00:38:00,160
thank him to this day, but he
took a chance on me big time to

743
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:05,640
say, all right, Ryan, like that
sounds like you got a good plan.

744
00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:08,200
Let's see it.
Let's let's give you a shot.

745
00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,200
I've heard people say, I think
it was we had someone, another

746
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,120
guest on that was from Shark
Tank work with Daymond John and

747
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,760
he said Damon specifically says
he doesn't invest in products,

748
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,040
he invests in people.
So whenever you have those

749
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,920
initial sales, you're investing
in the person.

750
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:22,440
That's pretty.
Good.

751
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,200
I think it's great advice, Yeah.
Yeah, making making little

752
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,920
connections in my brain here.
How this is all working, but we

753
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,000
talked about earlier how you
teach about half a dozen

754
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:32,680
different sales classes at
Clemson.

755
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,240
How does sales approach
depending on maybe the the

756
00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:38,000
political environment or the
industry?

757
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,800
How do you approach sales
differently depending on all

758
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:41,760
the.
Oh my gosh, that's a loaded

759
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:47,120
question.
You know, I think it's tough for

760
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,400
the, I think salespeople to get
it's, I would say it's easy to

761
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,520
get salespeople to get out over
their skis in a political

762
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,480
environment.
I think I, I'm, my personal

763
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,360
standpoint is to not, is to stay
out of that.

764
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,680
You know, and I think if I think
when there are politics getting

765
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,280
involved in, in business, it
gets, it gets real tricky.

766
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,320
And, but usually those, in my
experience, those conversations

767
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,720
get moved way up above where
the, you know, the salesperson

768
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:21,280
is trying to support that.
I do think that salespeople do

769
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,280
have a big role to play in terms
of guiding their customers and

770
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:25,920
how they're going to adapt to
this business.

771
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,560
So you think a lot of people are
dealing with price increases

772
00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:32,720
right now?
Well, if you're a supplier and

773
00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:37,680
you're, you're getting hit with,
I don't know, 5000% tariffs on

774
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,720
what you're trying to bring in,
We, we need to be talking to

775
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,200
each other about what we're
going to do here.

776
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,720
So you're kind of taking a
consulting hat in a sense, yeah.

777
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,240
I would say, I think it's fair
to say I've used this term

778
00:39:49,240 --> 00:39:51,680
before that salespeople should
it's hard.

779
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,640
I almost wanted to weigh the
term salesperson and just say

780
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,240
benevolent consultant.
OK, right.

781
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,160
And that's really what it should
be, right?

782
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:01,600
Yeah.
I mean, you should be.

783
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,720
All you should be doing is
listening to problems, OK, And

784
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,440
that.
But there is we don't.

785
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:11,320
I say we.
I don't mean this in the we as a

786
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,320
collective profession, we don't
do a good enough job.

787
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,720
Distancing ourselves and putting
away this temptation to just

788
00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:22,400
talk about our product, right?
We just love, love our product,

789
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,360
right?
Features and bells and whistles

790
00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:26,000
and all these things, they're
great, fabulous.

791
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,520
Yeah, but the customer like, but
really like the customer doesn't

792
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,200
want to talk like that's not
what they want to start the

793
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:35,320
conversation with.
And they're not going to be

794
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,440
bought in unless they see the
connection with what their

795
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:42,080
problems are.
So I think anybody that can go

796
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,960
in and have a good informed
conversation about how, how

797
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,160
trends going on in the air
industry, having foresight 6

798
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,160
months out, say, hey, this is
what I think you should be

799
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:53,760
looking out for.
Here are the risks to your

800
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:55,240
business.
Here's where I think you could

801
00:40:55,240 --> 00:40:57,520
grow.
Here's where I think this could

802
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,160
help your team be more
productive or improve morale.

803
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,440
And you know, I think there's so
many soft points of value that

804
00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:07,320
get missed.
I think we always want to focus.

805
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,120
Let's let's improve revenue,
right?

806
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:12,320
Let's cut costs.
What about making it a better

807
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:14,840
place to work, right?
What about better morale?

808
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:19,800
What about achieving A strategic
vision for corporate social

809
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:21,920
responsibility?
Those are all valuable too.

810
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,520
And so being able to speak all
of that and deliver those types

811
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:29,280
of messages, those are the ones
that move to the child, right

812
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,320
Really quickly.
If you were starting a company

813
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,920
today, would you make the
consulting and sales like the

814
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,360
same role?
Can you specify your question

815
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:39,320
so?
Yeah.

816
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,560
So you've talked about how
there's kind of a closer

817
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:44,440
relationship with the sales,
like trying to understand the

818
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,400
problem, make sure that they are
very well versed in the

819
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,040
customers background.
And I've kind of viewed

820
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,440
consultants in my previous
experience as the ones that do

821
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,800
that and maybe implement a
feature, help solve problems

822
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,680
where you're kind of proposing
the sales guy can do that.

823
00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:59,440
And ultimately that will drive
more sales.

824
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,760
It's would you try to make that
a like the same role, like

825
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,320
you're hired to sell and then
also stay around, understand the

826
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,400
product and kind of just have a
bunch of different sales guys?

827
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:11,320
Or I guess, would it be like
teaching consultants how to

828
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,200
sell?
Or how salesman how to be

829
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:14,480
consultants?
So you're on to something,

830
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:19,080
you're on to something.
So they're in a lot of your big

831
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:21,760
B to B companies, right?
I would say that role is already

832
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:25,520
there, right?
You are, you're not even called

833
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,000
a salesperson in a lot of these
companies.

834
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:32,720
You're called solutions
architect sometimes or you might

835
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:34,880
be called the key account
manager.

836
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,560
All right, Really all that's
saying is you are, I like to say

837
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:43,920
you're the quarterback, right?
You are somebody that sees the

838
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:48,080
field and knows how to
incorporate different members of

839
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,800
your team with the buying
organization, right?

840
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,760
And you're able to make those
connections happen and kind of

841
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,760
know all the time, Hey, you
know, we need you know, we need

842
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:00,480
to go you to go to this deep
pass over here.

843
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:02,040
We need you to do this out
route, right?

844
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,680
I mean, you see the field, you
see where things are going.

845
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:11,680
Forget my football now, but it's
really like in the in a bigger

846
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,360
organization, that's where it's
moving, where you are one

847
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:19,040
component of a team and it's a
it's a team selling approach,

848
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,440
which is super cool.
I mean, I think that's to me,

849
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:23,240
that's very exciting.
It's very dynamic.

850
00:43:23,240 --> 00:43:26,720
No day is the same, but you are
definitely somebody that you

851
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:31,320
have to build not only trust and
social capital with your buying

852
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,440
group, but now you've got a
whole team of people you've got

853
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,440
to, you've got to work with,
facilitate internally and some

854
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,640
people overlook that and that's
how it's you got to keep both

855
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,280
sides happy.
For someone that's trying to go

856
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,400
in and make a relationship with
a new customer and trying to

857
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,120
understand their problem, what's
the best way to do that without

858
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,960
having like a relationship with
someone that works there?

859
00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:56,760
Is it they're trying to?
Go find.

860
00:43:57,240 --> 00:43:58,960
Customers and understand their
problems.

861
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,760
It's, it's doing, it's doing the
hard work of the research

862
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:03,000
there's.
Tons of research.

863
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:08,080
I mean, really it comes down to
can you be credible in that

864
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,160
person's eyes, right?
And that can look different for

865
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,520
different buyers and different
people who are calling up.

866
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,560
But there's just some basics,
right?

867
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,240
You need to know what's going on
in their industry.

868
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:20,920
You need to know what that
person's role is like.

869
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:22,840
What do they care about?
What are their metrics, right?

870
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:24,240
What are they, what are they
held to?

871
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:29,880
You know, what type of boss do
they report to and what would

872
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:31,960
they potentially be worried
about with that?

873
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:33,360
So how are you finding this
stuff out?

874
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,160
You're asking around, right?
It can be.

875
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,240
I even encourage students at,
you know, take this time,

876
00:44:40,240 --> 00:44:44,680
especially you're here at
Clemson, the people love to talk

877
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:46,120
with students about what they
do.

878
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,440
Yeah, right.
You know, like they'll take

879
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:50,200
their, they'll take 30 minutes
out of their day.

880
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,840
And so use this time, you know,
figure out what these roles are

881
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:54,920
doing.
What are they about?

882
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,600
What is challenging?
What do they, what do they care

883
00:44:58,600 --> 00:44:59,560
about?
What a strategy?

884
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:00,640
Look.
Like essentially setting up

885
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:02,680
little coffee sessions from time
connections.

886
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:08,080
Oh yes, Oh yes, absolutely.
And I think if you can

887
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,320
demonstrate that knowledge and
that credibility, you're,

888
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:16,280
you're, you're so far out ahead,
you're 90% of the way out of in

889
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,200
front of everybody else from
that point, it's just, did you

890
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,120
catch them on the right day?
A lot of times, you know, but

891
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,680
you can do that, you know, but
then your odds are going way up.

892
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,760
Nice.
So before we, before we leave, I

893
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:30,520
do want to talk about some of
the books that you've written

894
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,720
because you've had tons of
different publications, probably

895
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:35,040
about like a a 20 or so
different publications.

896
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,440
Is there any of those that
you're you're more proud of?

897
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,360
Or if is if there's one that a
student that you're like, hey,

898
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,640
if you really want to get to
sales, you need to read this.

899
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:48,560
Oh man, I like they're all
across different things.

900
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,000
What are the topics?
So I mean, it ranges anywhere

901
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:55,920
from how accurately you think
our relationship is between you

902
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,160
and me and the buyer, right?
And how to make if I'm, if I

903
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,480
don't read you right, we're
actually much less profitable,

904
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:04,400
like, in our relationship.
OK, in terms of like, do you

905
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,320
trust me?
Are you committed to doing

906
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:08,360
business with me?
Are you satisfied with what I'm

907
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:08,920
doing?
Yeah.

908
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,960
So surprisingly, or maybe
unsurprisingly, salespeople

909
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,440
really overestimate how well
they're doing.

910
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:17,360
I've heard that it's actually a
blessing to receive a no because

911
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:18,920
it's clarity.
Yeah, it is.

912
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:20,000
That's.
Right, that's right.

913
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,240
Rather than just saying yes so
that you'll leave.

914
00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:23,720
Yeah.
So that, that was my

915
00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:26,160
dissertation, was really
understanding how often

916
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,080
salespeople actually misread how
their relationships are going

917
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,200
and how damaging it is actually.
Absolutely.

918
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,360
But then on the flip side, you
know, for like, especially in

919
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:39,240
times like these, there's also a
paper I've done where when you,

920
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,720
you know, let's see if sales
people go or when you hire them,

921
00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:46,760
that's actually one because of
the size and scale of some of

922
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:49,400
these sales groups, it actually
makes your stock market

923
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,840
performance really volatile.
So, so from a executive level,

924
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,440
right, from executive level, you
got to be thinking about what

925
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:59,680
signals it sends when you are
changing the size of your sales

926
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:01,800
force, right?
Especially if you're like land

927
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,600
10% off.
Well that if that's a 500 person

928
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,000
sales force, like what are your,
what are your customers going to

929
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,840
think about that?
So we, so there's paper there

930
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:11,880
really shows like actually
matters in the stock market,

931
00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:13,160
what you do with your sales
force.

932
00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,440
I think when I'm real, I'm
really excited about some stuff

933
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,040
I'm working on now that I think
is really relevant.

934
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,120
So one I'll mention one.
Yeah, love to hear them.

935
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:27,840
So one of the things that I
think is, is interesting is when

936
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,400
you've been in an organization,
I think it's common for most

937
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,040
people to feel like some people
love being there.

938
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,760
Some people it feels like they
were lucky to even make it

939
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,000
through the door.
They just, they're cynical,

940
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:42,680
nothing you could do anything
for them and they wouldn't

941
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:47,600
appreciate anything, right.
And we've we've been working on

942
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:52,000
this study for a while now
where, you know, turnover in the

943
00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:53,760
sales force is, is, is tough,
right?

944
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,280
And some organizations at 3040%
a year, right?

945
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:56,800
Yeah.
Wow.

946
00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:01,560
So it, but it's, it's hard for a
manager to always know like

947
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,960
exactly like what is he thinking
right now or what's he dealing

948
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,280
with?
So what we wanted to do, we

949
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,360
actually try to put together and
understand what are the

950
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,880
different types of groups are
type like, let's make it.

951
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,200
Is there a typology of
salespeople and how they're

952
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:16,680
experiencing their job right
now?

953
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:19,840
And so we in a paper at work and
all right now we're really

954
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,840
coming along and starting to see
actually some salespeople.

955
00:48:24,240 --> 00:48:26,240
They're like they're rose
colored glasses.

956
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:28,240
Everything is great.
You know, you give me more

957
00:48:28,240 --> 00:48:29,920
customers, more to do.
Hey, I'm great.

958
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:31,080
That's that's more money in my
pocket.

959
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,800
Potentially there's other people
you could give them all the

960
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:36,480
feedback, all the positive
feedback in the world.

961
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:38,840
I don't want any of that, right?
And everything is negative,

962
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,280
cynical.
And so it's starting to give us

963
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,760
this idea about, well, instead
of just having it maybe a

964
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,440
one-on-one kind of thing.
We can think of our our sales

965
00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:51,680
forces in groups, right?
We can think of them as you

966
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:53,880
know, there are some people
we're not being able to win

967
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:57,960
over, right?
They're maybe a little jaded and

968
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,080
it's going to be hard for them
to come back from the precipice,

969
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,680
right?
And there's others that man, we

970
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:04,400
can do no wrong.
We need to keep them there,

971
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:05,440
right?
We need to keep them there.

972
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,280
We need to figure out what we're
doing with that group and do

973
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,400
that.
So I'm excited about that

974
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:12,560
because I think it can be really
helpful to have this

975
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:16,560
conversation that what you're,
it really speaks to how

976
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,480
salespeople can look at the same
things you're providing, like

977
00:49:20,480 --> 00:49:22,520
everybody's getting the same
training, everybody's getting

978
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:24,760
the same customer workload,
everybody's getting the same

979
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:29,320
incentives, but look at them
very differently and find very

980
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,440
different value in each of those
things. 90%, yeah.

981
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:35,120
Whereas usually we think like,
oh, well, they just want to get

982
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:36,680
paid more, let's just pay them
more, right.

983
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,840
Well, actually, some of them
don't care about that at all.

984
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,400
Yeah.
Some that's not helpful.

985
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,440
Yeah, exactly.
So we're my Co Arthur Mouse.

986
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:47,560
We're we're excited to see where
that goes, so stay tuned.

987
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:49,480
Absolutely.
That sounds great.

988
00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:53,280
So also you talked earlier about
transitioning from engineering

989
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,600
to business.
Did you have any role models

990
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:57,400
that kind of helped you along
with that transition?

991
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:00,520
I think so my some of my
professors at the time.

992
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,320
In your MBA program.
Me MBA and my PhD.

993
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:08,800
So I had a couple professors in
my MBA that really, I mean, they

994
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,360
took a lot of time just sit with
me that's, you know, and really

995
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:17,720
talk about why they chose the
field and just the autonomy.

996
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:24,280
I'm just very big on personal
autonomy and I, I'll be real

997
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,160
frank, I've never done well with
a boss.

998
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:28,960
I just don't, I mean, for take
it or leave it.

999
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,000
And in academia you really, you
technically don't really have a

1000
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:34,920
boss.
You're, as long as you're

1001
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:39,920
publishing, getting good class
feedback, you know, it's a very

1002
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,360
output driven type of role with
a lot of autonomy and I love

1003
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:44,600
that.
You enjoy publishing and

1004
00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:45,680
writing.
I mean, I do it a lot.

1005
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:50,000
No, I do.
I do you got to have a long term

1006
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,280
orientation because it.
Takes a long time.

1007
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,640
I mean, a given paper, two or
three years easy minimum.

1008
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:57,480
Yeah, minimum.
Yeah.

1009
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,800
But, you know, they were really
open my eyes to that, right,

1010
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,320
That there's something different
than this, let's say the 9:00 to

1011
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,600
5:00 with corporate.
You know, I was just really, I

1012
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,320
think I was just really turned
off to corporate life after that

1013
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:14,000
stint.
And so I think I wanted

1014
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,440
something different.
And then when I answered my PhD,

1015
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:21,720
my advisor, he, he really just
showed me how he applies what

1016
00:51:21,720 --> 00:51:24,640
he's doing towards, you know,
being a consultant and being and

1017
00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:26,600
how they work together.
They married together really

1018
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:30,040
well.
So being intertwined with

1019
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:33,360
industry and understanding what
they're going through all the

1020
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,200
time that actually is creates
this kind of flywheel right?

1021
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,480
Where, well, now I'm plugged in
with them.

1022
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,720
This is a problem.
Now I can study it, figure that

1023
00:51:41,720 --> 00:51:44,840
out, help them with it, but then
now we can publish on it, right?

1024
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,440
And then you get some
recognition for that.

1025
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:49,480
And people are like, well,
that's interesting, what else

1026
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,080
can we do, right?
And it kind of perpetuates

1027
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:52,880
itself.
Nice.

1028
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:54,840
Yeah.
And looking back to what do you

1029
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,560
think was the best business
advice you ever received?

1030
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:06,120
Man, business advice I I think.
Or if there's a non business one

1031
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:07,920
that really sticks out that you
want to share you.

1032
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,320
I mean, I think it's just advice
I would just give my younger

1033
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:14,240
self.
I would be the advice.

1034
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:19,360
I would say have some just try
stuff.

1035
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:24,880
I think I had the classic risk
aversion of an engineer early on

1036
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:33,000
and I, I think I wish I had just
kind of stuck my neck out more

1037
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:35,160
to just try different
opportunities.

1038
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,520
I think when I was younger,
either whether it be like a, you

1039
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:43,240
know, small business or taking
on more opportunities to speak

1040
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,600
and network.
I think for the longest time I

1041
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:49,840
just, I thought networking was
abhorrent.

1042
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:54,040
I just like, you know, I'm like,
you walk into that room, I don't

1043
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,720
know a person here.
What am I supposed to do?

1044
00:52:56,720 --> 00:53:00,200
My wife is the most social.
Person and so that that's not my

1045
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:02,800
natural vent, but it has become
that.

1046
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,720
But man, I just I just feel like
gosh, I missed so many

1047
00:53:06,720 --> 00:53:11,920
opportunities early on to
connect right and I think just

1048
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:15,520
understanding what networking is
understanding it's just making a

1049
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,840
connection with somebody not to
get anything from them, but just

1050
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,880
have that connection.
You never know one day what that

1051
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,840
could turn into Friendship,
business, relationship,

1052
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:27,880
whatever.
On the street, yeah.

1053
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:31,360
But I mean, the, the power of
just having a good network of

1054
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:35,080
people who find you credible and
trustworthy, It's really, it

1055
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,000
could take you a long way.
So I think things like that, I,

1056
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:43,040
I regret not really, you know,
putting myself out there.

1057
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,960
Early so us as engineers
originally like it doesn't

1058
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:49,400
matter who you know as an
engineer, it's, it's 100% what

1059
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:50,920
you know.
I know, but that only gets you

1060
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:52,960
so far and.
That's engineering is one of the

1061
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,520
few I guess fields where that's
the case.

1062
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:59,200
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think a
lot of the technical fields,

1063
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:01,600
right.
I think it's, it's all about

1064
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:04,960
your knowledge, right.
And what you what you can

1065
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:07,760
specifically bring into because
it's so specialized, right.

1066
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:11,560
I think it Trump's not
necessarily, or I guess it

1067
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:15,240
Trump's having to have a network
because you're so specialized

1068
00:54:15,240 --> 00:54:16,720
that you're in demand.
Yes, right.

1069
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,560
And they're like, we don't care
who you know, can you do this is

1070
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:21,000
how the roles are as an
engineer.

1071
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:25,960
But but once you, you know, get
into industry, you figure out

1072
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:30,600
like, well, in that world of
that expertise, I'm actually not

1073
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,760
that unique, right?
You know, like there's actually

1074
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,960
a lot of people smarter than me,
even this niche, right?

1075
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:41,480
And so again, right, you got to
have, if you really want to

1076
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:44,080
escalate, keep going up.
I think that network is what

1077
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:47,840
separates people, yeah.
Well, I absolutely learned a ton

1078
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,760
about sales because I'm very
little going into this today

1079
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:53,120
check the box.
So I hope all the audience can

1080
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:54,760
relate to that.
But thank you so much for

1081
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:55,960
joining me today.
Thanks for having the.

1082
00:54:55,960 --> 00:54:56,520
Conversation.