David Zimmerman: Maximizing Your Marketing from a Fractional CMO | EP 42

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Thank you all for tuning into
the Carolina Business Leaders

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podcast, where we share the
stories of local business

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leaders and impact makers who
are community focused and deeply

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rooted in the Carolinas.
Today's guest is David

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Zimmerman, a seasoned fractional
Chief Marketing Officer and

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digital marketing consultant who
helps businesses clarify their

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message, reach the right
audience and Dr. measurable

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growth.
Thanks for.

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Being here, giving me an excuse
to come to Greenville.

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This is great to.
Talk to you and just dive into

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all of your your experience with
Reliable Acorn.

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Can you just refresh us And for
the listeners that aren't

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familiar, what is your role role
with Reliable Acorn and what are

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some of the problems y'all are
trying to solve?

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Yeah.
So I am a fractional chief

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marketing Officer.
So what I do is make sure all of

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my clients can know not just how
they're getting new customers,

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but how much money they're
making from their marketing

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efforts.
OK.

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That's very important.
It's very.

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Important.
Well, it shouldn't be in the

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modern world of digital
marketing, but you'd be

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surprised at how many companies
throw stuff at the wall and hope

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something sticks and or spend a
lot of money with Google and

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figure, well, it must be doing
something.

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But my job as the fractional
chief marketing officer is to

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make sure that clients know they
spent this much, they made this

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much, let's keep spending it or
let's not, OK?

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It's hard to tell to like which
efforts your advertising is

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working and which ones it's not,
so that's a pretty difficult

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problem you're trying to solve.
There well, it's not because

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there's a lot of tools that are
available for free that you can

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do a really good job with this
and you know, depending on each

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client, every clients a little
bit different, but some clients

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they sell something online, some
clients are more lead generation

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and is we would just work really
hard to get as close to the

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final closing as possible.
So if we don't start at the

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vanity metrics, Hey, we're you
got so many views in your pages

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hair like did anybody like call
me right and of all the people.

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Who called me?
Right.

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Did any of them actually close?
And so if we can bring it to

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dollars in dollars out and
marketing is no longer like a

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cost of doing business, it's an
investment in business.

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And that's what we want at
Reliable Acorn clients, to just

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be confident, to know I spent
this, I made that, let's keep

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spending.
Right.

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Or or not or I spent this, I got
that.

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Let's stop with the TikTok ads
because maybe our industrial

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services clients aren't on
TikTok.

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Maybe, but we'll measure it to
not.

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Sure.
And I imagine you work with

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clients in varying sectors.
So how do you go about learning

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what their market needs versus
this other sector industry?

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Yeah.
Yeah, that, I mean, that's

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really important because one of
the things I do is I, I limit

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the number of clients I work
with so I can really focus on

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them.
I don't work in one niche.

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I don't work with just law
firms, right?

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I work across the board.
So when I bring on a new client,

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I really am in this if like for
the first couple months, I'm in

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this advantage where I get to
look at their website and their

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marketing materials from a clean
slate, right?

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These these clients, they know
their stuff.

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They're industry experts, but
sometimes they get caught in the

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vernacular.
Sorry, they get caught in the

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jargon and they don't speak the
vernacular.

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So they'll end up talking about
something and what is it that

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you sell right?
And so when I'm starting, it's

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looking at that assets and being
the what does this mean?

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So for instance, in a former
agency made a client that hired

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us to promote their high
performance sports undergarments

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big project that's really kind
of cool.

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And we're doing some research
and we're like, what, what, what

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is it high performance sports
undergarment?

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Yeah.
And so we're did some we're

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like, it's underwear and they're
like, no, it is not.

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It is more past underwear.
It is a high performance sports

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undergarment.
It's underwear for athletes.

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Nobody knows what a high
performance sports garment is.

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And I can appreciate that the
millions of dollars you put into

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branding your space.
But if nobody knows, like would

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you take money from someone who
searched for underwear?

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Would you take the money?
Well, yeah, they probably would.

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So let's rather than make our
clients understand this before

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they can become a customer,
let's do basic marketing and

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speak our customers language and
introduce them to some.

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You don't need just underwear
when you're running a marathon.

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You need a high performance
book.

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Like let's let's take it that
way.

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But I mean, it's a silly
example, but it's it's true.

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It's like some of my B2B
industrial clients, like there's

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so much engineer, the jargon is
so thick.

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Like what do you do?
But what in and when I start

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with a client, I'm in a unique
position to kind of ask them

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again.
Your website doesn't mention

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this.
So you're making sure that the

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marketing is very tailored to
the exact audience that they're

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trying to reach, like a very
quality kind of approach, not a

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quantity.
Absolutely not.

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Right?
The old school marketing was all

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about law of large numbers.
If enough people saw your

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billboard on the side of the
street or your television ad

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during the Super Bowl, then just
by law of large numbers, some of

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them would become customers.
And maybe we might be able to

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make an estimate of how much you
made from the Super Bowl app.

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But that's not modern marketing,
right?

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Modern marketing is we spend in
a targeted way.

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We spend our time or money in a
targeted way looking for the

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people who are looking for us.
So that's a difficult problem.

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How do you find that exact
audience for this said product?

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Well, every product is
different, right?

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And some of that is just
interviewing the client.

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I work really well with sales
teams, right?

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Usually like a company that's
got a sales team is probably one

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of the first people they hire,
maybe even.

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Before the external marketing
department can't last long

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without revenue.
Yeah, exactly.

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So talking with the salespeople
about, you know, how do your

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customers, what are the problems
you solve, what are, what are

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some of the things they're
looking for in you as a solution

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is a huge help.
So I actually work really well

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with sales teams.
That makes sense, right?

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Because I'm making sure they get
not just leads, but qualified

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leads and then they can close
them.

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So that's kind of what we're
trying to do when we're talking

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with these people to understand
who they are so we can target

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rather than.
So where do you?

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So once you know who they are,
how do you find them?

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So we go through a very specific
process that we can actually go

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to Google and Google will give
us numbers behind how people

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search.
OK, that's.

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Right.
We're using some data from

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Google and we use that data to
say, you know, I know you think

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your customers talk about you
this way, but that's actually

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not as common as this, OK?
It's kind of goes to the whole

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high performance sports
undergarment model.

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People don't know what that is,
but they do know what this is.

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Would you take that money?
And sometimes clients are proud

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or they're technical and they're
like, no, David, we do this, but

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their customers don't know that.
And so my job as the marketing

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consultant is help them
translate to their customers to

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make sure they're speaking to
their customers in a way that

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the customers understand.
So that and that's just basic

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marketing, right?
Yeah, yeah.

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So what drew you to marketing
initially?

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And you're passionate about it.
So what keeps that passion

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going?
Yeah, yeah, I, it's so funny.

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I stumbled into this.
You know, there was a few years

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ago when I was younger and the
economy was kind of in a flux.

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I interviewed at this job in
Charlotte and I thought this is

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very interesting.
So after the interview, I went

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home and looked at what the heck
I just interviewed.

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Post interview.
What is this SEO thing?

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And I'm like, what is SEO?
And I'm like, oh, that's really

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cool.
I would like to do this.

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That's cool.
Well, they hired me not having

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known what SEO is because I come
from kind of this weird space.

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They knew I knew enough about
technology.

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Like I've I know how to build a
website.

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My websites are ugly.
You don't want my website, but I

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know the technology.
Sure.

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I mean, you guys are probably
too young to know what a Palm

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Pilot is.
Oh, my dad had one and it was

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like a toy for me.
I used to love his Palm Pilot.

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I wrote a program for the Palm.
Pilot.

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Oh wow.
Around program, it took me many

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years, right?
My dad was a pure engineer.

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Right.
He was.

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He was.
So I kind of bring that in,

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yeah.
And like, but my, my degree, my

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experiences, all communications.
So I'm kind of this weird space

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where I can kind of bridge the
gap between the technical IT

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team and the marketing.
A lot of marketing teams don't

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communicate well to tech people.
Yeah, I saw.

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And vice versa.
I saw that your dad was a

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computer engineer and your mom
was an art teacher.

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That is kind of like the perfect
blend of like technical and

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creative.
You you should write Pictionary

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with us somewhere.
My goodness.

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Like my dad when he's, you know,
he gets a card and, and we, we,

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he hopes it's something
concrete, a car, something, and

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he will draw a circle and then
he'll scale it, draw a circle,

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scale and draw a line between.
Them and perfectly.

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Measured and he's doing it.
My mom's like, why are you

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taking so long?
What the heck is?

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That he's engineering the art I.
Can see it, but when my mom

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would get something she would
get the abstract squash and

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since she'd be like scribbled to
get quick and then the abstract

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my dad is what the heck is that?
What?

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Who that you know?
But I'm the only one who can do

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both.
You've married the 2.

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Understand.
That's cool, both of them.

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And I'm.
So I'm the only one who can play

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Pictionary because they can't
play Pictionary with each other?

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That's funny.
Heath is a computer engineer, so

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he can very much relate.
Yeah.

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But so going back, what
encouraged you to start Reliable

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Acorn and go out on your own?
Yeah.

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So I was working at agencies for
a long time and I worked at a

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really nice agency, one that
I've maintained a relationship

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over the years.
They refer clients to me.

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Vice.
Versa, but when you have a big

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agency like that, you have to
sell a product and the product

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has to be predictable and
scalable.

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And although, you know, these
were this was a company with

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integrity and just the sales
team were were good people,

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sometimes they would sell
something that didn't really fit

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client because that's what you
had to sell, right?

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This is the project.
It says X dollars, you get Y

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things for Z.
You know, whatever what I went,

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I wanted to go out on my own
because I wanted to be able to

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say, you know, everybody's a
little bit different and I want

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to be able to pivot to do the
most effective things for you,

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not some packaged deal.
Let's.

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Dive into that a little bit
more.

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What do you mean by?
That yeah.

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So like one of my client I was
speaking with recently, they

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were just adamant, David, we
need you to help us with our

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e-mail campaigns, OK.
And it made sense that e-mail

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was a big because of the nature
they're they're kind of in the

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recreation business.
So e-mail made perfect sense.

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And you know, so we're working
on these emails, we're spending

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so much time on these emails,
but we when we look at the data,

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they were getting so little
traffic from their emails.

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But even worse, the even smaller
percentage of the pie was the

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income from sales of products
through that e-mail.

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So on the other side.
Ineffective.

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Well, it was ineffective, but it
was also like over 50% of people

229
00:12:38,560 --> 00:12:44,160
came to their site from from
Google searches and over 60% of

230
00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:45,920
their sales from Google
searches.

231
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,760
So it's like we're spending all
this time on something that

232
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:53,400
makes this much money and we're
not getting to the thing that

233
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,680
really makes some money and that
we could get the more money.

234
00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:01,080
So that's goes just the idea
that we have to measure it to

235
00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:07,600
the sale because that helps us
pivot to the effort because

236
00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:09,120
everybody's got a limit.
Yeah.

237
00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,400
And if you grow 10% in that
small little pie versus 10% in

238
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,920
the massive 60%, yeah.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.

239
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,920
So we just want to spend that
effort and time, you know,

240
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:20,400
there.
Nice.

241
00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,840
Well, what initial obstacles did
you face when launching your own

242
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:29,880
business?
I think let me lean back on my I

243
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:34,080
think the biggest struggle when
I got started was imposter

244
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:38,560
syndrome, right?
Just the interior interior

245
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:42,360
barrier that made me when you go
out on your own, you're like,

246
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:47,120
wait, I can't hide behind a
multi level agency.

247
00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,840
I can't hide behind the team I
manage.

248
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,600
I'm here and.
It's no one's fault but my.

249
00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:59,640
Own it is and also like it was
hard because of the posture to

250
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,760
explain my services because I'm
like, well, yeah, I really do

251
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:06,800
that.
I had a mentor.

252
00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,560
He's he was also my former boss.
He's like, you know, David, once

253
00:14:11,560 --> 00:14:14,600
you go out, people are going to
want to work with you.

254
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,880
And that kind of encouragement
helped me just have a little bit

255
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,240
more confidence to kind of make
this initial sales make those

256
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,960
things.
But yeah, that imposter showed

257
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:30,240
to really hard at first and I'd
lie if I'm completely free of

258
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,800
that, right?
Yeah, being vulnerable right

259
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,880
there.
Yeah, that's good.

260
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,200
So with facing that and starting
the business, obviously you

261
00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:41,880
needed to get your first few
clients.

262
00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,040
So how did that go with trying
to pitch the first couple

263
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,120
clients and then closing on
those clients, right?

264
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:52,160
Right, so I I joke with fellow
colleagues in the industry, you

265
00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:57,120
know, we will say that the call
where his kids got no shoes and

266
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,760
the same is true for almost
everybody in marketing, right?

267
00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:04,520
We do we spend all of our time
and effort on our clients that

268
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:09,520
we neglect our own marketing
like like look at everybody at

269
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:13,360
my clients websites.
Don't look at mine because I'm I

270
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:16,920
spent all this energy and heart
and time and effort on them.

271
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,960
I don't have anything left for
me and another mentor, just when

272
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:23,720
I went on my own was trying to
encourage me is like, you know,

273
00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,440
I know you're good at what you
do, but don't be so proud to not

274
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:32,760
take a referral, right to not to
be like, I'm going to spend all

275
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,160
my time marketing for myself
rather than networking, which is

276
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,920
how every small business gets
started.

277
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:44,280
So once I got once I kind of got
a couple clients, enough to kind

278
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:48,440
of eat ramen for a couple days,
that's the criteria to leave.

279
00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,760
And then once I was out, a
couple people started showing up

280
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,640
saying like people in adjacent
spaces to me.

281
00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,120
David, you do this, I do that.
I need someone who does what you

282
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,880
do and they refer because me got
you.

283
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,920
And so you kind of started your
own gig part time while still

284
00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,080
working full time.
I, when I, I kind of reached the

285
00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:12,600
point where I'm like, I would
like to start my whole thing by

286
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,600
myself.
So I really intentionally did

287
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,040
it.
I it's not fun working 2 jobs.

288
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:21,240
Yes, right.
So I kind of set out with the

289
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,480
purpose of going and set a
criteria.

290
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,040
Once I reach this criteria, I
will resign from my last agency.

291
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:28,840
Yeah, yeah.
We can relate to the two jobs

292
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:30,800
and we both work full time.
Do the podcast.

293
00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:32,640
She has the ladies club that
she's doing.

294
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,560
I'm doing school online so it's
tough.

295
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:36,960
It's a.
It's a lot.

296
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,480
It's all a good thing, so.
So it's a good chapter.

297
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:42,600
I should say.
We're definitely swamped, but

298
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:46,200
it's worth it so.
What was the first year like out

299
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,440
on your end?
What was the first year like?

300
00:16:50,440 --> 00:17:00,120
That was 10 years ago.
I think the first year was just

301
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:05,760
like every business you you say
yes to things that maybe aren't

302
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:09,920
a perfect fit but are close.
Because you just got to get rid

303
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:11,520
of because you.
Kind of have to get it now.

304
00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:13,520
You say yes to?
I heard business centers say

305
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,319
they say yes to everybody.
So I did get good advice at the

306
00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:19,240
beginning to not do that.
You know, that helped me dodge

307
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,400
some some bad situations.
That's.

308
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:23,800
Good.
But I was kind of in a

309
00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,520
privileged place where I was
like, I kind of had a basic

310
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,040
foundation.
So I could kind of say, you

311
00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,880
know, I don't want to get
involved in that industry.

312
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,040
Like I don't really want to do
that.

313
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,880
Feel good about telling my mom,
I'm working with your industry,

314
00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,000
so I'm not going to work with
you.

315
00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,240
Thank you.
Best wishes to you.

316
00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:49,520
Or, or things like or, you know,
you can kind of see, you know,

317
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,600
clients that may be a little
belligerent, right?

318
00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:57,440
I get that for some companies,
marketing is like, I've got to

319
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,760
get this and that.
But I've also worked with

320
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,360
clients before who I have this
weird.

321
00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:05,960
Like I motivate you by being
negative.

322
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,640
Yeah, I hate that.
Threatening and I'm like, no,

323
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,200
you really aren't paying me
enough to treat me that way.

324
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,560
And I learned that from one of
my mentors who when I was

325
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:21,920
sitting in my office working
with him, there was a client

326
00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,000
that was yelling and cussing at
me.

327
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:28,960
And my boss walked in and just
said, put the phone down.

328
00:18:28,960 --> 00:18:31,800
Like, and I'm like, oh man, I'm
about to get fired.

329
00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,360
And I didn't know what to do.
He's like, you know, And so I'm

330
00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:36,160
like, I just hung up on the
client.

331
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,640
And then he left.
My boss left.

332
00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,480
And I'm like, oh, no.
And he calls that client.

333
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,880
And I'm like, oh, he's calling,
apologize.

334
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:47,520
He's calling it says he's going
to fire me.

335
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,240
And he calls his client.
And I can hear him because his

336
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:52,040
office is right next to me.
He's like, you don't get to talk

337
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:56,000
to David that way.
You don't get to talk to anybody

338
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,440
like that.
You are fired as a client of

339
00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:00,200
ours guys.
Those are the best stories.

340
00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:04,360
And and so now for that reason,
every time I go to lunch with

341
00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:05,520
John I.
Buy.

342
00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:07,920
And.
Yeah, you've got to be

343
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:09,640
selective.
Help give me some confidence

344
00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:11,760
when I went on my own to be able
to say, Oh yeah, that's.

345
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,600
Right, be selective.
Yeah, that's right.

346
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,200
And.
That's that's good.

347
00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:17,640
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I get that.

348
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,760
Being in financial services,
we're pretty selective as to who

349
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,760
we work with and firing a client
does come into play

350
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,920
occasionally.
I work in a family business with

351
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,280
my father, so he is very strict
about that.

352
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,320
It's got to be, we want to work
with you, you want to work with

353
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,200
us.
And if it's not a good fit and

354
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,440
there's a lack of respect, it's
just not happening.

355
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,040
And so I love that you've been
able to stay true to that since

356
00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,160
day one.
But are there any fun success

357
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,280
stories that you can share with
us with any companies in

358
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,040
particular?
It would be a a good one to

359
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,800
share.
There's Oh my gosh, I don't

360
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,880
usually like to talk about
clients by name.

361
00:19:55,880 --> 00:19:57,200
Yeah, sure.
That's OK.

362
00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,200
I have a client, I have a client
that's kind of in this

363
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:08,000
industrial services space and
they hired me because they

364
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,400
brought a new sales person on
it's head of sales.

365
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,520
And with that like they're
doubling down on that.

366
00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:17,160
They better get leads.
Bring me in to bring leads.

367
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:21,120
Sure.
So here I am working together

368
00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:23,720
with the sales team.
We're trying to do the marketing

369
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,400
to bring the leads.
But of course, rule 1 is we

370
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,440
always measure everything as
close to the sales we can always

371
00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,640
do.
And I say, OK, well, what we're

372
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,600
going to do is we're going to
track phone calls from your

373
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:36,040
website.
Someone calls you, we're going

374
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,720
to know how they found you and
we're going to actually record

375
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,440
the call so we can say this is a
good lead or not a good lead.

376
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,080
And they're like, nobody calls
us.

377
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,320
And I said, well, bear with me
and I will cover the expense of

378
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,720
tracking your phone calls.
But trust me, let's just try

379
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,560
this.
And they're like, nobody calls

380
00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,560
us.
OK, fine.

381
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:01,680
You can, you can say I told
yourself.

382
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:07,600
So we set up the phone call
tracking and not surprised to me

383
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,240
but like 3 times as many people
called them then filled out

384
00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,120
their website form.
Why is that?

385
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:16,800
Because sometimes people just
want to talk to somebody.

386
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,560
Yeah, right.
Especially in this space, which

387
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,320
was so technical.
It's like, what do you, you

388
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:23,840
know, in the form, what do you
need?

389
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:28,120
What like I need a mark 6 S 2
slash.

390
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:31,320
But they, but they don't really
need that.

391
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,840
They also need a service.
And so it's just like, rather

392
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,960
than write it like, can I just
tell you what I need?

393
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,040
So we started recording the
phone calls and I said, look at

394
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,520
how many phone calls you're
getting.

395
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,400
And they're like, we've never
gotten a phone call.

396
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,840
So we listened to the phone
calls and we heard the

397
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:56,000
receptionist go, I don't know if
we do that, but I will.

398
00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:58,800
I will give your name to
somebody.

399
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:04,680
There's a stack of phone call
leads on her desk and she didn't

400
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,960
know what to do with them.
From Fortune 500 companies,

401
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,120
$1,000,000 projects, $1,000,000
projects, this is Dow

402
00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:13,280
Industrial.
Called them and said will you

403
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,200
come do this on our plant?
Bottom of the stack because the

404
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:18,600
receptionist didn't know what to
do with.

405
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:19,920
It that's terrible.
Right.

406
00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:23,480
But they were making money
before this.

407
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:28,000
Eventually someone would find
that lead, But because we were

408
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,680
tracking everything to
conclusion, we were like, you're

409
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,440
getting all these calls, where
are they going?

410
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,760
The receptionist was never
trained because again, nobody

411
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,760
ever calls us.
And so once we found the stack

412
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,600
of.
Yeah, that made a difference,

413
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:47,160
right?
Yeah, yeah.

414
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,920
So, so that was like a, a
wonderful win because we're

415
00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,760
showing the value by asking the
question, where do these leads

416
00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,280
go and how many of these
clothes, it helped the whole

417
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,680
company like instantly start
making money.

418
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,040
That's a big time, right?
So you work with businesses

419
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,200
directly, so you're AB to B kind
of like reliable Acorns B to B,

420
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,920
but when you are working on your
marketing leads, are you helping

421
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:16,640
companies also market B to B or
you business to consumer model

422
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,240
or do you feel like you're good
at both?

423
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:24,360
I specialize in B to B services,
so companies that have a service

424
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:28,560
to other companies.
So that's your these industrial

425
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,600
stuff.
I work with a company that it's

426
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,080
a different sort of industrial
services I'm going to make sure

427
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,120
I don't work with.
Competitors.

428
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,160
That's unethical, Yeah.
To help promote to people that

429
00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:40,080
are competing.
Yeah, yeah.

430
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,000
Who do I like today?
Yeah.

431
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,240
Yeah.
I do work with a law firm and

432
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:48,640
and they're they're great.
That's.

433
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,240
Good.
But that's a very competitive

434
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,960
industry and you know, they're,
they're in another state.

435
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:01,200
But the point is, is that
they're in A, even though it's

436
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:06,840
their B to C in orientation,
their approach as a law firm is

437
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:13,520
very B to B because if they get
one case, that's $10 million,

438
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,760
right?
So it's a similar kind of like

439
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,880
we had to play the long game
because not everybody who calls

440
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:21,920
us a $10 million case.
That's right.

441
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,560
And the same thing with these
industrial companies, right?

442
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:29,560
There may be a, you know, ten,
$20,000 machine, great.

443
00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,760
But everyone saw there's
$1,000,000 project coming along.

444
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,000
And so that really changes the
way you think about marketing

445
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:42,280
and people who are B to C
marketers don't understand that

446
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:44,240
when they try to market AB to B
business.

447
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,920
And so they'll do things that
they think will have an instant

448
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,560
impact.
But reality we're so these

449
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,720
companies have 6 to 12 month
buying cycles, right.

450
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,360
So all the more reason to keep
track of that lead to completion

451
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,840
because that's a lot of money we
don't lose track of.

452
00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:03,280
Do you have a team that works
with you, or what's the

453
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,360
structure with your company?
Yeah, I, I am.

454
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:12,200
I am me that I do all the
strategy and some of the

455
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,560
services, but I work with a
series of 1099 trusted employees

456
00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:20,120
who little across the US and
they help me with certain things

457
00:25:20,120 --> 00:25:21,040
along.
That's great.

458
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,120
So you know, when I went out,
I'm on, I, my, one of my mentors

459
00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:28,600
kind of said, you know, when you
get into marketing you either or

460
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,840
doing an agency where you're
always chasing the next lead.

461
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,120
So then you can hire the next
employee.

462
00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:37,880
So you can chase the next lead
and end up cascading and having

463
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,200
to productize your services just
like the last agency I worked.

464
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,480
At.
But I decided I'm going to just

465
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,520
work with a limited number of
clients.

466
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,800
I know I can really help and so
I just focus on them, focus on

467
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,880
doing good for them and I'm
happy with that.

468
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:55,800
The problem is I'll get capped
out.

469
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,200
There'll be at times when I just
can't take another client.

470
00:25:58,200 --> 00:25:59,480
Sure.
But.

471
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,160
Yeah.
If someone comes to you with a B

472
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,440
to C product that they wanna
sell, maybe it's clothing,

473
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,560
phone, app, whatever might be,
will you work with them or is

474
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,640
that completely out of your line
of work?

475
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,560
I would, I would be happy to
consider it, but certain B2C

476
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:20,160
things in the modern digital
marketing space are we're

477
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,960
competing against Amazon, we're
competing against, you know,

478
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,000
other things that are, you know,
behemoths.

479
00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:29,960
There's a lot of competition to
be to see.

480
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,720
Right.
And so as long as the client

481
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,200
understands the competitive
nature of things and I'm happy

482
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,520
to just act just as a consultant
to make sure they're spending

483
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:45,280
their money effectively.
Like there's great ways to get

484
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,000
onto Amazon.
Like I don't know if.

485
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,040
Amazon's going to take 20% of
your profit.

486
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,880
But that's probably it.
We got to do math, right?

487
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,040
That might be worthwhile.
That might be worthwhile.

488
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:01,240
Like I know that when I need a
consumer product I skip Google

489
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:02,600
and go to Amazon.
Right.

490
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:08,800
So whatever we are marketing B
to BB to C, it's all about

491
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,080
understanding our customers and
their trends.

492
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,680
Would you say that the B to C,
if a business is specializing in

493
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:17,760
B to C and that's what their
business model is, is that more

494
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,040
difficult than AB to B approach
I?

495
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,280
Don't know if it's more
difficult.

496
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,680
OK, it has its own unique.
Difficulty Different.

497
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,080
Silent, right?
Yeah.

498
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:34,760
And so it, it sometimes my
clients will be very excited

499
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:39,040
about that tactic.
I want to do a video.

500
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,560
Great.
But let's have a strategy behind

501
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:48,120
the tactic rather than do the
tactic because the tactic needs

502
00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:52,720
to be based on who are we trying
to reach who, what are they

503
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,720
like?
Where are they now?

504
00:27:55,280 --> 00:28:00,040
And if we figure that out first,
then the tactics come.

505
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,200
But if you start with tactic and
you say, hey, you know, I just

506
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,280
went to the local Chamber of
Commerce and the guy presented a

507
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,400
video and I'm really convinced
we need to do a lot of video.

508
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,520
Well, it's not the tactic, it's
the strategy to make that

509
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,720
successful.
So it's the same thing with

510
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,480
like, hey, you know, I'm excited
about TikTok.

511
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,760
My daughter's on TikTok and
we're doing a well.

512
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,600
If you're an industrial services
company, your audience might not

513
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,200
be on TikTok.
But if you're AB to C product,

514
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,960
it might be on TikTok.
It might be depending on things.

515
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,440
So like I had a not a client,
but a colleague.

516
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:41,560
He sold like medical assistive
devices like walkers or canes

517
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:42,600
or.
Crutches.

518
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,600
You know things for your showers
and even slip and fall.

519
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:51,360
So he learned that his audience
wasn't even really using Google.

520
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,520
Right.
So they would went focused on

521
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,200
Bing exclusively.
They're using Bing.

522
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,120
Believe.
It or not, they're just.

523
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,240
Saying like magazine.
I don't know if you've heard of

524
00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:03,520
this before.
I guess the older audience is

525
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,560
using Bing.
Well, in this case that was the

526
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,240
case, right?
But he did the right thing and

527
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,640
understand his audience and made
sure and market to where.

528
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,880
These are good find.
And if you're tracking

529
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,920
everything to completion, you're
going to have that down.

530
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,240
Yeah.
If you just say I want to do

531
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:26,560
this tactic like I want to just
do e-mail, let's take a step

532
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:29,680
back and see how that e-mail
fits into the bigger scope and

533
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,560
might find a better opportunity
to make your money.

534
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,600
If a company is first getting
started, what percentage of

535
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,760
their their revenues or just
their initial pots of money

536
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:43,160
should they spend toward
advertising?

537
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:54,720
I don't know.
I think, boy, that's a good

538
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,920
question.
I, I wouldn't know how to advise

539
00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:02,200
on that.
When I start with a client, the

540
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,720
first thing we're doing is
setting up this tracking system,

541
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,120
right?
Because I want to know what's

542
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,800
working currently to decide what
we do.

543
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:18,600
When I talk to clients, they'll
often have more money into

544
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,400
marketing than they realize
because they're spending money

545
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,200
on things they're.
Wasting the account.

546
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:24,680
Right.
I best bought a billboard,

547
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:25,800
David.
Why?

548
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,440
Yeah.
Like, you know I just spend

549
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,000
$10,000 on a Yellow Pages ad.
What's the Yellow Pages right?

550
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,240
Right, right.
If it's a week, if we're putting

551
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,120
this analytics together, we can
kind of say, well, you know,

552
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,600
like with some of my clients, we
spent $50,000 a year going to

553
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,760
trade shows.
You know what we could do with

554
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,400
$50,000 a year in other
marketing channels rather than

555
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:57,680
sending your entire sales staff
away and maybe pick up some

556
00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,880
leads.
Let's.

557
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:02,600
So sometimes what we'll do is
not necessarily approach it how

558
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,760
much of your percentage should
be done, but what are you

559
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:07,760
spending and are you spending it
effectively.

560
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,280
Let's shift it into the most
effective efforts.

561
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,160
And I'm not saying we don't do
trade shows and I'm not saying

562
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,560
we don't do a yellow page ad.
I'm just saying.

563
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,280
Let's see.
Where it is, everybody is doing

564
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,280
something for marketing, but if
you don't know what it's

565
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,880
producing, that's where we want
to make sure it's working and.

566
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,840
Then talking about the different
tools and opportunities you can

567
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,480
use for marketing, what would
you say are the best tools to

568
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,040
use or use?
So-called swear by these tools

569
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,680
like you have to use these.
Yeah, I I mean, I feel like I'm

570
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,200
beating the horse dead.
Yeah, yeah.

571
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,160
But what the best way to measure
someone from through your

572
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,680
website to completion is, is a
free tool called Google

573
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,200
Analytics.
It's a real simple thing.

574
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,000
Most every website you can
install Google Analytics, it's

575
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,360
free.
Of course you're giving all your

576
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,840
data to Google that's it's free,
but it's worth.

577
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:07,480
It.
It's pretty supportive and

578
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,000
there's a ton of information in
there.

579
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:15,480
And so like that kind of goes to
the marketing budget question,

580
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,840
like before you spend any money
on marketing, set that up.

581
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,240
Start there.
Start there.

582
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,840
If that's all we have, that's
better than a lot of businesses.

583
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,040
Sure.
I I recently encountered a

584
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,680
business and they were judging
their marketing based on their

585
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,840
bottom line, but they had no
idea how money was getting into

586
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,480
their bottom line and that's
painful.

587
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:39,400
There's a lot of blindness,
right?

588
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,400
Right.
And Google Analytics is a free

589
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,160
tool that allows you to learn
more and then if you get a

590
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,920
little more advanced user in it,
you can learn even more.

591
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,520
And we can cobble in some other
tools, but like if you do

592
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,560
anything you don't spend,
there's so much you can get for

593
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,400
free.
Like Google Analytics, Google

594
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,560
has a tool called Google
Webmaster Tools.

595
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:08,920
There's a tool on Bing web, Bing
Webmaster tools that has so much

596
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,920
capability.
It's capabilities.

597
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,920
You usually have to pay an SEO
tool hundreds of dollars a month

598
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,840
you get for free if you just
install the Bing thing.

599
00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:23,440
So like you can go so far with
free and then determine how to

600
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,000
spend your money because you do
have to spend money.

601
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:28,840
Yeah, sure, you do have.
To and you want it to be

602
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:30,000
effective as possible.
Right.

603
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,640
So it's you're either spending
money or your time and most

604
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:35,280
business owners don't have time,
correct.

605
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,680
So you got to spend money, but
let's spend it effectively and

606
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,000
set up, set ourselves up for
successfully free.

607
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,960
And I'd say that even for a
multi $1,000,000 company,

608
00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:46,160
they're almost the worst about
tracking them.

609
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:52,680
So you simply just install this
free tool multi $1,000,000

610
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,360
company, you're going to start
to change the way you do your

611
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,360
entire marketing.
If a client comes to you and

612
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,120
says I don't have any customers
but I'm trying to get lifted off

613
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,680
the ground right, how would you
initially advise them on their

614
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,360
journey of getting started?
Well, I think part of it is

615
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,320
we're going to do a little bit
of market research and we can

616
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:18,520
do, we can learn a lot about
their customers from just the

617
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,960
the review process.
Who are their customers?

618
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,440
What are they looking for?
There are sources of data we can

619
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,480
pull for free.
So it doesn't really have to be

620
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,440
an expensive process.
Research.

621
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,880
Research, we can come in and we
can say, you know what?

622
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:39,199
People look for this idea.
And so if they're looking for

623
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:43,600
this, there's demand for this
product or service that informs

624
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,400
which channel we're using.
We're using a search channel,

625
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,199
Google ads, organic search,
something like that.

626
00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:55,480
Even even the LLM's like CHED
GPT, they are responding to

627
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,960
demand.
GPT has put me on some different

628
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,560
products, right?
Yeah.

629
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,680
But if we do the research and we
find out, nobody's looking for

630
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:09,000
what you have to offer.
Maybe refers to market, wow, I

631
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,400
mean, congratulations, maybe you
solve a problem, people don't

632
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,160
know there's a solution for it.
That's like, great.

633
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,680
But then search and the things
that are responding to demand

634
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,800
aren't your marketing channel.
We have to do demand driving

635
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,480
things.
So that's where social media

636
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:30,480
becomes really helpful.
PR, just basic PR is very

637
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,360
helpful with that.
And there's just other products

638
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,240
that are.
So we have to 1st determine do

639
00:35:36,240 --> 00:35:38,880
people look for what you have or
not yet?

640
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,000
Would you use different social
media channels depending on the

641
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,760
product or?
Yeah, well, not, not so much the

642
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,880
product much the audience, the
customer, Right, right.

643
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,560
Yeah, cuz like, I'm a Gen.
Xer so I'm still on Facebook

644
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:57,080
because I'm not cool, but you
know, do Instagram too and they

645
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:58,640
show.
It is funny how it goes from

646
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:00,720
like Facebook to Instagram to
TikTok.

647
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:03,480
My wife is like.
They totally see me.

648
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,720
I don't like to be seen this
way, but this I need this

649
00:36:05,720 --> 00:36:08,120
product.
But you know, if your audience

650
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,640
is of a different generation,
they're going to be on different

651
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:12,680
platforms.
And so we.

652
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,480
It's 100% customer.
Base we have to have the

653
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,440
strategy to.
Inform the tax well and if

654
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,280
anyone you know this best
experimenting with this podcast,

655
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,680
which platforms are you getting
views on?

656
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,080
And you know, and who's our
audience with this podcast?

657
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,840
So we're getting to experiment a
little bit with that here.

658
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,160
And then just with what I do for
work, we really get to test it

659
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,640
out.
Most of our clients are over 60,

660
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,480
you know, so we're not on TikTok
or Instagram or anything of

661
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,040
that, that nature.
We're on LinkedIn and Facebook

662
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,920
and that's it.
So it's, I feel like it's 100%

663
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,520
what you said.
It's customer based.

664
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,600
Where are your customers?
What's their age range?

665
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,000
And then go to that platform.
So we're experimenting with that

666
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:51,360
a ton right now with the
podcast, and it's been fun.

667
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:53,600
Good.
As a young professional, did you

668
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,800
see yourself getting this
involved in marketing and being

669
00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:01,600
this passionate about it?
No, I graduate, this dates me.

670
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,880
I graduated college and same
year Internet Explorer 1 came

671
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:06,440
out.
Nice.

672
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,320
That's not even the first.
Browser, but the first browser

673
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:13,520
people knew about.
So like this whole thing was not

674
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:15,520
something.
That existed, yeah.

675
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:17,800
When I graduated from college.
That's a good point.

676
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,520
I guess a lot of kids to realize
that that what they're doing

677
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,560
later down the road might not
even exist yet.

678
00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:26,640
Right, Yeah, I think that live
all my best friends from

679
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:28,600
college, none of them are
working in the field that they

680
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,760
graduated with, right.
Well, no, there's.

681
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:32,840
Probably a couple.
There's a couple that's still

682
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,520
like an aerospace engineer, but
sure I know another aerospace

683
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,240
engineers photographer.
Like, sure, it's like it

684
00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:41,120
changes, right?
Right.

685
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,880
You know, I've had to reinvent
myself several times through my

686
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:44,560
career.
Of course.

687
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,200
OK.
That's how it works.

688
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,160
That's the joy of this podcast.
We get to hear stories like

689
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,680
yours where people started in
one career and it evolved

690
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:54,640
through life, and now you're
doing something you love, which

691
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,320
is fun.
But what are some of the top

692
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,480
marketing mistakes that you've
seen?

693
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:01,640
Oh.
Boy you.

694
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,960
Don't have to give names.
He won't do that.

695
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:19,880
Client called me one day and he
said, David, I need to be on

696
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:27,560
Instagram and I said nobody
cares about your law firm on

697
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:32,240
Instagram, but my competitor is
on Instagram.

698
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:39,120
Nobody compares about your
competitor on Instagram, but I

699
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,160
want to do Instagram.
We can do Instagram, but we're

700
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:49,000
going to track it.
They got nothing from it.

701
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,760
Yeah, right.
So we know that nobody follows

702
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:55,360
law firms on Instagram.
Sure.

703
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,760
Right.
Because no one thinks horrible

704
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,280
things are going to happen to
them on a regular.

705
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,920
Basis, right.
When something horrible happens.

706
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,080
Then you go to an attorney,
right?

707
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,560
Right.
You know you're like, I know I

708
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,440
might get in a horrible default
in a car accident, right?

709
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,920
Better follow this look lawyer.
Like this billboards are

710
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:14,560
extremely effective for
attorneys because I feel like

711
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,800
every other billboard is an
attorney nowadays.

712
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,400
That is not a function of
effective.

713
00:39:20,720 --> 00:39:23,080
OK.
That is a function of.

714
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,840
Just throwing.
It at the wall, knowing that if.

715
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,360
Someone gets on a wreck.
Yeah.

716
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,200
Yeah, that.
That billboard's paid for

717
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:34,040
itself.
Right.

718
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:38,600
It's it's it's not one client
targeting is casting wireless,

719
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,760
so it's very old school method
are.

720
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,280
Billboards going out of business
per SE, like they're not very

721
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,000
effective.
I think.

722
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,240
Or is it they're just so cheap
that they can pay for

723
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:51,520
themselves?
Well, they're not cheap.

724
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:56,080
They're they're pretty pricey,
so all the more reason to make

725
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,520
sure you're getting a lot of
effort out of it.

726
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,040
But around Charlotte, I just ran
into this the other day, there's

727
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:07,120
a whole series of billboards
that are empty except for like

728
00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:10,360
part of a rubber ducky.
Interesting.

729
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:13,400
Exactly.
And they're all over Charlotte.

730
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:15,960
So you're not here, people.
Start talking.

731
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:17,240
What?
What's this thing?

732
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:21,960
It's the Billboard company
trying to make you ask that

733
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:23,120
question.
That's funny.

734
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,760
So they can say made you look
not what you.

735
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:27,840
Want, yeah.
We are effective.

736
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:32,880
Right, we are effective.
Well, OK, so they're getting

737
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,400
attention, but will they get
customers?

738
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,480
Yeah, because who's talking
about it?

739
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,880
Not necessarily their customers,
right, Right.

740
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,640
Everyday people on a commute.
Who don't need billboards?

741
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:45,840
Some of them do.
And again, law of large numbers.

742
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,840
By law, there's numbers if
you're commuting.

743
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:49,960
Someone might.
Cussing at the traffic, right

744
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,360
stuck on I-77 going north into
town because you want to get to

745
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,960
the night theater.
But you might see that and

746
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,080
you'll be like, oh, that's the
marketing solution.

747
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,240
I'm finally.
Looking for right?

748
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,840
If you talk to your marketing
consultant, they might suggest

749
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:06,480
for the money you're spending,
we could do a lot more effective

750
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:12,120
things.
So it's that's I'd say in a cast

751
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,960
widely and hope for the best.
But because they're lawyers,

752
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:20,080
they can afford to cast widely
because the winning potential is

753
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:24,200
so large.
Average business doesn't, isn't,

754
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,760
you know, looking for a win in
the millions.

755
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,160
We'll wrap it up here soon.
I am curious to get your

756
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,720
thoughts as a digital marketer
specializing in, in that kind of

757
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,320
marketing.
Would you say that like print

758
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,480
marketing, maybe newspaper ads,
magazines and like maybe radio,

759
00:41:40,720 --> 00:41:44,800
billboards or some of these kind
of being less like becoming less

760
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:47,480
effective over time and it's
kind of transitioning towards

761
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:52,440
solely digital SEO, social
media, YouTube ads, those kind

762
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,760
of things, Are those going to be
the more effective ways in the

763
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,160
future, I guess?
Is my question.

764
00:41:57,720 --> 00:42:02,680
Yeah, those television, radio
print ads are already fading,

765
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,360
fading.
And I can say that from data.

766
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,920
So I have a one of my clients,
they are like, I want to be in

767
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,880
this local magazine.
OK, we can try anything you

768
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:15,480
want.
We're going to track it.

769
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,080
So we you probably see these
too.

770
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:19,240
How would you track?
That see there you go.

771
00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:20,440
That's exactly the right
question.

772
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:25,080
So they did their domain slash
periodical name.

773
00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:30,560
OK, so observer slash observer
slash, you know, Free Press,

774
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,160
whatever the essentially.
They made their ad in that

775
00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:34,600
magazine have a different
domain.

776
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,240
So you can see it Well, no.
So they like

777
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,680
website.com/observer.
Yeah, sure.

778
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,280
Right.
So now everybody who saw that ad

779
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,520
said oh, if I want to respond to
this ad, I will go to

780
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:51,000
website.com/observer and they
and we can then track the only

781
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,960
way you visit that is if you saw
the ad.

782
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,040
So we know it came to the ad and
there's some magic we do with

783
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:59,160
Google Analytics and say hey,
this came from this ad.

784
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:03,680
So we have, I have a client,
they've been running an ad in

785
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,440
this industry periodical for two
years.

786
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,840
And because we set up the
tracking, we know they got 2

787
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:18,080
phone calls from it over two
years and then five figures to

788
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:21,840
spend a year and not a low 5
figures, right.

789
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:26,200
And so it's like, I know you
think that's where your

790
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,360
customers are.
There's a, and then conversely,

791
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:33,600
like a client, he, we probably
don't want to talk to politics.

792
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,960
He just took his neck out and
said, I'm going to be in a

793
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,240
political ad.
And he wore a shirt from his

794
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,760
with his company's name on it in
a political.

795
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,200
Ad.
Hey, you know you.

796
00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,880
Already cut it in half, right?
My, I'm not a political

797
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:49,600
consultant.
That was a marketing consultant

798
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,960
and his attitude was no press,
it's bad press.

799
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:58,360
Yeah, I I might have suggested
that yeah, some press might be

800
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:04,000
bad press, but we saw his
traffic spike just.

801
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:09,320
Yeah.
Last October when it when the ad

802
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:16,000
ran, no more leads.
A lot of people are going, who

803
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,920
the heck is this company and why
do I not want to use them?

804
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,920
Because he supports the
candidate a lot, right?

805
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:27,200
So he was excited and he was
approaching it from large law of

806
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,280
large numbers, which is kind of
how you have to approach print

807
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,080
media, radio media, television
media, right?

808
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,200
Law of large numbers.
If we get enough people see it,

809
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:38,120
surely someone's going to need
my service.

810
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,680
But you also might have
alienated some of the people who

811
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,240
might have used your services
because you took sides very

812
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:51,400
politically short.
So, yeah, those ads, I, I've

813
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:53,320
seen, my clients were willing to
try it.

814
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,520
But we're going to know if it
works.

815
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,000
I've yet to see it really
effectively work.

816
00:44:59,720 --> 00:45:03,480
And that's because we track it.
Yeah, tracking's important.

817
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,240
So what would you say is the
most rewarding part about your

818
00:45:06,240 --> 00:45:08,600
job?
You clearly love what you do, so

819
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,560
share with us what brings you
the joy and what's the most

820
00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:16,160
rewarding part.
I love it when a client sends me

821
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:21,440
a lead and say, David, look at
this right, because we're we set

822
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,520
up systems to make sure they
they know this lead came from

823
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:27,360
this source and they send me a
copy.

824
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,920
David Chachi PT told this person
to call me.

825
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:32,800
This is the.
Perfect lead.

826
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:38,640
And I'm just like, but it's so
gratifying, like, you know, I

827
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:43,160
know I'm delivering not just
money to them.

828
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:47,840
I'm helping their company employ
people, you know, helping the

829
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,560
employees send their kids to
good schools.

830
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,840
I'm helping build the greater
economy in the Rock Hill area,

831
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,520
right?
Like, it's it, it feels good to

832
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,480
be part of something productive
and be able to say, hey, you

833
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,560
know what?
Not your ad on Facebook.

834
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:06,280
Got 10,000 impressions last
month.

835
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,000
Aren't you impressed?
Right, right.

836
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,320
But.
You made $100,000?

837
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,360
Yeah, closing a deal.
In deals last right.

838
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:15,520
Yeah, right.
That's where.

839
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,800
Thank you.
For getting us on ChatGPT.

840
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,280
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Essentially.

841
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,800
Getting past the law of large
numbers where it actually

842
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:24,800
matters, which is did the deal
close right?

843
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:26,440
And that's what's important to
me.

844
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,280
That's where I get excited.
Yeah, right.

845
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:33,080
Because I know I'm making a
difference for them and their

846
00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:35,240
employees and the the greater
economy for.

847
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:37,920
This absolutely great.
Well we like to close it out

848
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:39,800
with a lot of our guests.
Where if you could speak to your

849
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,000
younger self, what advice would
you give him?

850
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:49,400
Oh, boy, David, you know, you
really imposter syndrome is

851
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,040
real.
You need to acknowledge that.

852
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,640
And maybe you should talk to
someone about it, you know,

853
00:46:55,640 --> 00:47:01,040
earlier than later.
It's OK, I, I work with a couple

854
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,960
people, like I coach some
people, but I, I'm, I am coached

855
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:07,960
too.
And just so many of the barriers

856
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:12,400
to business or psychological
hurdles, our own bad history

857
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:17,200
with money, our bad history
with, you know, life experience,

858
00:47:17,720 --> 00:47:21,000
imposter syndrome, you know,
it's buzzwordy, but it's real.

859
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:26,280
And like, I think if I could
talk to young David and say,

860
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:30,800
David, you know, it's OK to
admit that you feel this way

861
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,600
and, and maybe it's worthwhile
to talk to somebody who's

862
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,040
professional about this and no
one's going to shame you for

863
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:37,320
that.
You realize that it's common.

864
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:43,400
It's very common and I think
that's if, if I'd had someone to

865
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,040
talk about with that at that
time, I think not only would I

866
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:49,720
have been more successful
quicker, but I probably would

867
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:53,320
have been happier quicker and
that it would be great.

868
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,600
Oh, I think we can both agree.
We've had so many guests come on

869
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,520
and say you fake it so you make
it and that is they live by it,

870
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:01,040
so they all feel that same
thing.

871
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,080
Yeah.
But well, thank you so much.

872
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,800
This is very good.
We appreciate you coming all the

873
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:07,800
way from Rock Hill too, so that
makes it fun.

874
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:09,080
I know it's a great trip.