Cybersecurity Entrepreneurship: From Zero to 200 Employees with Jeremy Wanamaker | EP 49

1
00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:04,880
18 years ago, Jeremy Wanamaker
bootstrapped his own business in

2
00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:08,280
cybersecurity and IT.
His company is called Complete.

3
00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:12,000
Today, he receives 20 emails a
day from investors trying to buy

4
00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,080
his company and this podcast, we
are going to unpack how he did

5
00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:16,480
it.
We first dive into what his

6
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,360
mindset was like when he first
started his business and how he

7
00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,200
found his first customers.
He then shares how he's using AI

8
00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:26,280
to grow his business and how he
scaled it from zero to over 200

9
00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:28,800
employees.
Jeremy is orchestrated complete

10
00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:30,520
becoming a very successful
business.

11
00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,040
But what you didn't know was
this wasn't his first attempt,

12
00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,080
which you're about to hear all
about in the following

13
00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:47,120
discussion.
Jeremy, thank you so much for

14
00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:48,920
joining me.
For the first segment, I'd love

15
00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:51,840
to talk about the psychology
behind starting a business.

16
00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,240
Snow, you mentioned earlier that
you started a couple businesses

17
00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:57,240
and kind of like got your feet
wet with a couple things and

18
00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,600
then you end up starting
complete and even do that for 18

19
00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:01,880
years now.
So my problem or I guess the

20
00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:03,880
problem I want to present is I
want to start a business, but I

21
00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,480
don't know where to start.
How do I make the transition

22
00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:08,400
from my 9:00 to 5:00 to a
business owner?

23
00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:11,480
Yeah, well, first of all, Heath,
great to be here.

24
00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:13,200
Thank you for inviting me on the
podcast.

25
00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:16,960
Excited to be here.
So, you know, I, I can't, it's

26
00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:18,760
hard to speak in generalities.
I can tell you how.

27
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:23,680
I did it I.
Think the the the most important

28
00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,240
thing for me was finding product
market fit.

29
00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,680
Did I have a service that I
could offer that people were

30
00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,400
willing to pay me for?
And so the way I went about

31
00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,200
that, when I started my
business, leading up to that, I

32
00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,920
was in a corporate job and I
called a few people on my

33
00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:41,120
network and said, here's what
I'm thinking about doing.

34
00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,640
Could you use these services and
would you be willing to pay for

35
00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:45,000
them?
And I actually had a few people

36
00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,880
commit prior to me resigning
from my corporate jobs.

37
00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:49,200
So you had some customers lined
up?

38
00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,760
I had them.
Lined up and I knew that with

39
00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,520
those customers I could cover my
expenses, my living expenses,

40
00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,840
and sort of get some runway to
get this thing off the ground.

41
00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,560
So what exactly is product
market fit?

42
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:02,960
Yeah, it's, it's having
something to offer the

43
00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,400
marketplace that people are
willing to pay for, right.

44
00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,400
So you could design something,
the great world's greatest

45
00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:11,760
widget, but if nobody's willing
to buy it, your business is

46
00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:12,480
going to fail.
Yeah.

47
00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,680
What were your previous ventures
before starting complete?

48
00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:20,840
Oh well, I tried to get into the
T-shirt business.

49
00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,640
That was a really hard business
for me to get into.

50
00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:29,120
Never really made a go of it.
I tried doing eBay, that was

51
00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,480
that was not for me, too much
shipping and handling.

52
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,520
Like there was a huge amount of
administrative overhead and

53
00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,240
handling material, shipping it
out, dealing with returns it, it

54
00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:41,840
was just it was too much of A
hassle.

55
00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,320
I couldn't see a way to scale
that business, so it didn't work

56
00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:45,480
out for me.
Understood.

57
00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,200
Gotcha.
So then with with complete

58
00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,720
though you had like an idea that
you thought, hey, this might be

59
00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:51,280
able to sell.
I might be able to find

60
00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,800
customers with this kind of what
was that mind shift like of

61
00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:57,080
going from like AT shirt
business?

62
00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,240
Like why did you choose a
cybersecurity route?

63
00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,960
Well, I have a background in in
technology.

64
00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,320
My undergraduate degree was in
computer engineering and I do

65
00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:06,360
IT.
Love that.

66
00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,400
Yeah.
So I mean, really, initially all

67
00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,040
I was doing in my business was
selling my time for money.

68
00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,280
I was consulting, right?
And so I was like, if I do this

69
00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,120
for you, I'll spend this much
time per week.

70
00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,560
This is my hourly rate.
Are you willing to pay for me?

71
00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,560
People that hired me knew my
level of expertise, knew what I

72
00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,760
could bring.
They're willing to pay it.

73
00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,880
It was, it was a much lower
hourly rate back then because I

74
00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,920
was just trying to get my my
business off the ground.

75
00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:34,160
But yeah, I mean that that was
it.

76
00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,840
I had a service to offer people
willing to pay for it that

77
00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,200
allowed me to start my business.
But from there to where I am

78
00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,960
today, you know, we went through
a couple of iterations in the

79
00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:48,120
business model to where now I
have a business where it's not

80
00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,040
just time for money, it's
actually an entire service

81
00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:55,320
offering that other people are
delivering, I'm overseeing, and

82
00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,480
it's scalable.
So you had, so you're telling me

83
00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,640
that today's business model was
not the original business model?

84
00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:02,200
You had a couple of pivots along
the way?

85
00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,000
Exactly, yeah.
How did you handle like stress

86
00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,400
and doubt and when you were
first getting started?

87
00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:09,320
Yeah.
Well, when I was when I was

88
00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,520
starting the business, I was
single and I had no kids.

89
00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,640
So my expenses were very low.
You could sleep on a couch easy

90
00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:18,200
there, yeah.
Yeah, I was.

91
00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,000
I was renting an apartment.
I was 28 years old.

92
00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:24,480
It was, it was I would say a low
risk play for me.

93
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,600
So you know, what I did is I
just sort of looked ahead into

94
00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:31,000
the future and realized what's
the worst case scenario if I do

95
00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:32,680
this for two years doesn't work
out.

96
00:04:33,280 --> 00:04:35,040
I can go back into the corporate
world.

97
00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,720
I'll still be young.
I might be in a little bit of

98
00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:41,840
debt, but I can, I can, I could
rebound, you know, and, and get

99
00:04:41,840 --> 00:04:44,080
back on my feet.
So that was sort of the the

100
00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,440
story that I was telling myself.
And I like that as like when

101
00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,560
you're in your younger years,
you're not at your most like

102
00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,280
profitable years.
So it's not as risky per SE.

103
00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:53,400
Yeah.
Whereas if you're like been in

104
00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,200
industry for 30 years or
something and then you make the

105
00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,520
jump and you're taking out,
you're losing out a larger pay

106
00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,120
cut, I should say at all.
Yes, Later on, if I, you know,

107
00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:04,120
I'm, I'm almost 20 years into,
you know, this, this business

108
00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,080
now if I were to do it now, I
would take a much different

109
00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:08,640
approach.
So yeah, it's, it's it's, I

110
00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:10,280
think it's different depending
on the stage of life.

111
00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:12,640
That you're in.
What are a few things every

112
00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,080
entrepreneur needs?
So if you're speaking to a young

113
00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,800
professional and he's thinking
about starting a business, can

114
00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,800
you tell by talking to him
whether or not he'll be

115
00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,280
successful?
Oh, man, that's, I mean, I

116
00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:23,680
could, I can make a
determination.

117
00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:25,960
I think that, you know, there's
probably a couple of red flags

118
00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,160
that would say that you're not
going to be successful.

119
00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:31,040
Yeah.
I mean, you got to have a lot of

120
00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,640
grit and determination, right?
Like there's a lot of days where

121
00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,400
you're you're you're, I remember
early in the business, you know,

122
00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,280
just sitting there being like,
I'm not sure if this is going to

123
00:05:40,280 --> 00:05:42,320
work out right.
Like, I don't know if I'm going

124
00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:43,800
to make it.
I don't know if I can, if I can

125
00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,920
deal with this.
And it's just going in day after

126
00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,800
day doing the work, building on
what you've already built and

127
00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,320
being willing to stick with it.
You know, that that's for me,

128
00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,680
like what's the biggest thing?
Because, yeah, there's a lot of

129
00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:58,480
doubts.
There's a lot of a lot of early

130
00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,160
failures.
There's mistakes that you make,

131
00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,560
there's money that you spend
poorly, you know, MIS hires all

132
00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:07,000
of these things that the
business owner goes through.

133
00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,560
And you know, the other thing is
no matter what level you get to,

134
00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,160
there's always a sense of
imposter syndrome, I think for

135
00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,120
many people like.
I've heard that from multiple of

136
00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:18,200
our guests.
Yeah, do.

137
00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,360
Do I actually belong here?
Am I, am I qualified to do what

138
00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:23,640
I'm doing?
And and you just, you can have

139
00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,600
these doubts, but the key is you
just got to push through it and

140
00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:29,240
have that level of determination
and grit.

141
00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:31,160
And you push through it.
Now, 18 years later, you're

142
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,520
still leading your business.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

143
00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,840
It's been good.
Fantastic right there.

144
00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:39,160
So we talked about like how you
decided to go through the tech

145
00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,760
route, but like cybersecurity
specifically, why not like IT

146
00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:44,680
related or something like that?
Yeah.

147
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:47,400
So you know my business, we do
IT services.

148
00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,680
Cybersecurity is one of those
services.

149
00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:55,280
I think cybersecurity is a
natural outgrowth of it because

150
00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,160
IT service providers are being
asked by their customers to

151
00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,000
provide cybersecurity.
We have to do it.

152
00:07:01,280 --> 00:07:06,400
The threat landscape has gotten,
you know, much bigger.

153
00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,760
There's a lot, there's a lot
more going on.

154
00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:10,840
There's a lot more threat actors
out there, a lot more people

155
00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:12,720
trying to steal your money.
And it's, they're not just after

156
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:14,960
the big guys anymore.
They're after every business.

157
00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:20,880
So every business needs to look
out for for it's tech, make sure

158
00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,400
that it's properly protected.
And so just out of just natural

159
00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:26,800
demand in the marketplace, we've
had to expand into

160
00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,400
cybersecurity.
With your first customers, how

161
00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:31,720
are those customers different
than today's customers?

162
00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:34,000
Yeah.
Well, I, I think the first

163
00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,400
customers as a business owner, I
mean this is true for me.

164
00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,160
A lot of other business owners
that I've talked to have said

165
00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,560
this.
You take on anybody initially

166
00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:42,760
because you just need the money,
right?

167
00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,280
You need revenue, revenue in the
door so you'll take any

168
00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,040
customers.
Now we can be much more

169
00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,440
selective and we know who our
ideal, we know what our ideal

170
00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:55,000
customer profile looks like.
And so if we if we come across a

171
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,280
prospect and it's just early
conversations are not going

172
00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,440
well, it's like this is not a
good fit for us.

173
00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,280
Why don't you go check out this
other firm?

174
00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,360
They might be a better fit.
So you can now you have the

175
00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,040
looks you're like referring them
elsewhere.

176
00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:06,760
Exactly.
Yeah.

177
00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,560
But at first it's.
Just you take anything.

178
00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:10,400
Anything you can do?
However, I've heard it's like

179
00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:12,800
you're like a consultant for
them, like you're solving every

180
00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:14,640
problem, you're working with
them all the time, giving them

181
00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,960
all your attention to most.
And it's very different than the

182
00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:19,840
later customers, I'm sure.
Yeah, exactly.

183
00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:21,360
Yeah.
And I think you've got to be

184
00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:23,680
willing, if you, if you're never
willing to go through that

185
00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,760
transformation, what you'll find
is you have, you have some

186
00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:32,360
subset of customers that's using
up all of your time and they

187
00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:37,159
probably don't make up a big, a
big percentage of your revenue.

188
00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,360
And so you just never be able to
scale because you're putting all

189
00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,039
this time into these customers
that aren't good fits for you

190
00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,000
and you can't you know, you're
not able to your attention on

191
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:48,680
more profitable.
Customers, Absolutely.

192
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:50,840
Yeah.
We're excited for this new

193
00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,760
direction we're heading in for
Season 2, but we can't take all

194
00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:55,520
the glory for the strategy
behind it.

195
00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,440
One of our good friends and
mentors, Gil Garretson, is an

196
00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,720
absolute guru when it comes to
finding customers, growing your

197
00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,840
business and anything marketing
related.

198
00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,440
He's written a few books.
The one I'm going through now,

199
00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,400
it's called Startup IQ, and it's
filled with all kinds of hidden

200
00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,120
gems for helping you grow your
business.

201
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,600
It's been an incredible resource
for me, getting new ideas for

202
00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,040
how to grow the podcast.
Gil's been in the industry long

203
00:09:16,040 --> 00:09:18,440
enough that all this stuff comes
second nature to him.

204
00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,440
He helped me rethink the entire
strategy behind my podcast in

205
00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,280
just a cup of coffee.
If you're looking to grow your

206
00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,040
business, I highly recommend
checking out some of Gil's books

207
00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,600
if you haven't already or just
reaching out to him directly on

208
00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,400
LinkedIn.
Enough of that quick plug now

209
00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,560
back to our guest for this next
segment.

210
00:09:33,560 --> 00:09:35,520
I'd love to talk about
transforming my business with

211
00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:37,960
AI.
This is AI's taking over the

212
00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:39,360
world.
It seems like it's doing all the

213
00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,200
coding, making all these
websites, It's chat GPTS all

214
00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,880
over social media.
So how can I use AI within my

215
00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:48,200
business?
Yeah.

216
00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,160
So I think it depends on scale
and budget.

217
00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,760
So if you're a small business or
a start up business, you know,

218
00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,360
there's a lot of free AI tools
out there.

219
00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:01,320
There's free tiers of ChatGPT,
Gemini, the different big

220
00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,040
players.
You can use those.

221
00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:06,840
I would say initially content
generation's a big one, so.

222
00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,480
Marketing.
E-mail, Social.

223
00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,160
If you want to do a social media
post, it's super easy to just

224
00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,480
plug an idea into ChatGPT or
Gemini or whatever platform you

225
00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,400
use, get a nice output, do some
proofreading, make sure it's

226
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,640
correct, and then put it up on
LinkedIn or whatever social

227
00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,040
media platform you're looking to
leverage.

228
00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:32,240
I think the big thing is in
content generation, just, you

229
00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:33,520
know, put some care into your
prompts.

230
00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:35,880
Don't necessarily take the first
thing that comes out.

231
00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,400
Yeah, you've got it's already.
Making it for you like put in

232
00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:42,280
some effort take a good prompt I
think that AI is doing great

233
00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,120
with like graphics and images
yeah but like text like if I see

234
00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,600
something just straight out of
ChatGPT like to me that's just

235
00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:49,880
so obvious you.
Recognize it.

236
00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:50,240
Right.
Yeah.

237
00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,680
You know, like you see like this
long LinkedIn post, like that's

238
00:10:52,680 --> 00:10:54,720
strict from chat.
So it's like maybe add some

239
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:56,240
effort to make it a little
better.

240
00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,240
Exactly.
But what kind of AI tools are

241
00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,160
you using within your business?
So, you know, we're, we're what

242
00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:06,720
I would say is a small, smaller,
medium sized business.

243
00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:11,840
So we have about 200 employees.
And, you know, I think there are

244
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,720
AI tools now that are being
built into software packages,

245
00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:16,360
SAS platforms that people are
using.

246
00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:20,600
I think those are key.
So financial packages, whether

247
00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,560
it's QuickBooks Online,
bill.com, NetSuite, whatever

248
00:11:23,560 --> 00:11:26,520
level you're at, there's AI
tools being built into, into

249
00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:28,320
those.
I think those are great things

250
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:33,840
like invoice recognition,
receiving an invoice and having

251
00:11:33,840 --> 00:11:36,400
the AI look at the invoice, look
at the different fields on the

252
00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,240
invoice, automatically put it
into your accounting program

253
00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,240
paying the bill.
You can really speed up accounts

254
00:11:42,280 --> 00:11:44,480
payable it makes.
Things very much more automated,

255
00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:46,320
saves time, that sort of thing.
Yeah.

256
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:49,160
So, so the the tools that are
being built into the software

257
00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,520
that you're already using, I
think that's a big opportunity.

258
00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,040
If you've got the budget and the
people and the resources,

259
00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,720
building out your own AI tools
is something that you can look

260
00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:01,720
at.
It is expensive and you've got

261
00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,240
to have a software layer.
Typically you need a developer

262
00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:09,680
or some sort of, you know,
middleware capable person on the

263
00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:12,920
team who can, who can glue the
AI to the software tools.

264
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,280
But we've had some success in
that area, but it does take more

265
00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:17,320
resources.
So here's.

266
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,680
A question for you would as a
business owner, do you get

267
00:12:21,680 --> 00:12:25,000
worried about like Open AI or
Anthropic or like tragic BT like

268
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,600
stealing your data, like do you
have any privacy concerns with

269
00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,560
those?
I definitely have privacy

270
00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:32,680
concerns and actually we're
quite careful about that.

271
00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:36,160
And actually one of the biggest
areas of concern for us is these

272
00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,240
AI note takers that show up in
Zoom meetings, right?

273
00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,040
So if you notice, you'll get in
a Zoom meeting and somebody will

274
00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,520
pop in with an AI note taker.
And if you don't control that AI

275
00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:47,520
note taker, you have no idea
where that data is going.

276
00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:49,880
So if you're talking about
something confidential,

277
00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:52,960
sensitive and meeting where?
You are not being sold.

278
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,640
Yeah, it's being used to train,
to train a future AI system.

279
00:12:56,680 --> 00:12:59,400
Yeah.
So we've actually in our

280
00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,600
business, we've banned all AI
note takers except for the one

281
00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:04,280
that's built in.
In house.

282
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,560
To to to our chat program or to
our video conferencing program.

283
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:09,680
Nice.
So I would I would recommend

284
00:13:09,680 --> 00:13:11,800
that you don't want to allow
third party note takers because

285
00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:13,200
you have no idea where that data
is going.

286
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,200
One of the things I'm working on
at work, which I can't get too

287
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,640
much into it, it's not my time
for that, but like creating an

288
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,880
AI system where the customer
like owns that data, like

289
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:22,880
hosting it themselves and their
own hardware.

290
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,000
You don't have to worry about
where it's going because you

291
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:26,680
have these models that are open
source now.

292
00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,960
You can download like a ChatGPT
instance and run it on your

293
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:31,840
hardware.
Granted, you need a ton of

294
00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:33,560
hardware to be able to do it
with some of those.

295
00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:35,640
So yeah, I don't know, there's a
lot of like flexibility with

296
00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,280
that.
But yeah, data concerns is

297
00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,920
always on the talk so.
I even saw an article this week

298
00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,040
about there's there's new
hacking techniques coming around

299
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,680
around prompt injection.
I've heard of this, yes.

300
00:13:46,680 --> 00:13:50,480
And so people have actually even
on internal AI systems which

301
00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:55,600
which the Fortune 500 are using,
you know, it's, it's contained

302
00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,000
to their business.
Yes, it's in a bubble for them.

303
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,480
But let's say you have an
executive who's using AI to

304
00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,480
summarize e-mail, and you have
another employee who knows how

305
00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:07,120
to do prompt injection.
They've actually shown that they

306
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,320
can pull.
Data from their executives.

307
00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:11,760
Yeah, from, from executive
emails or other things that are

308
00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:13,960
in that self-contained AI
environment.

309
00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:15,280
So that's a scary thing.
Yeah, you have.

310
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:16,720
To worry about internal attacks
now.

311
00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,480
Internal attacks, yeah, or a
threat actor getting access

312
00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,720
using prompt engineering to to
gain access to emails or other

313
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:24,760
sensitive data.
Yeah, that's terrifying.

314
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,240
Yeah.
What sort of jobs do you think

315
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,760
AI might be taking, if any?
Do you think AI would be taking

316
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:30,160
jobs?
Yeah.

317
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,920
I mean, the only jobs that I'm
really familiar with that it's

318
00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,520
taking right now are entry level
computer science jobs, yes.

319
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,280
Sort of that one, it definitely
is.

320
00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,040
It's doing it for us.
It's helping us like not need as

321
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:42,560
many engineers as we did.
So if we needed five before, we

322
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,600
can do it in three.
Yeah, kind of thing, yeah.

323
00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,120
You know, apart from that, one
of the problems with AI is we

324
00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:53,400
can't really trust it to be, you
know, an agent in and of itself.

325
00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:56,080
You still need a human to prompt
it 100%.

326
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,400
You need a human to take the
output and do something with

327
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,600
that output, right?
We're not trusting the AIS to go

328
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,000
and make sensitive business
decisions or run business

329
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,240
processes end to end.
And I just, I don't see that

330
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,680
coming in the near future.
Maybe it's coming at some point,

331
00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,000
but there's still got to be a
human there to validate it.

332
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,640
So I think for the near, you
know short to near term,

333
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,560
hopefully it'll make us just
make us all more productive and

334
00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:21,920
I think.
That's kind of where it's going.

335
00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:23,800
I don't think it's, I mean, it's
obviously I guess it's taking

336
00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:25,840
jobs if you need less people on
the team.

337
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,400
But like, it's not for what I
can see, like completely taking

338
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,000
away some kind of career sets,
you know, like, I think with

339
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,280
like content that we talked
about, like you still need

340
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,280
someone to prompt it to like get
it, which kind of had that extra

341
00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:39,800
human feel to it.
Exactly.

342
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:41,960
So I don't think it's really
necessarily taking those sort of

343
00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:43,440
jobs.
We're not seeing that yet.

344
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:44,800
Yeah.
Have you been keeping up with

345
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,160
like the trends of AI?
Like do you see it in like 5

346
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:51,120
years being like this crazy
thing where, well, there's a lot

347
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,200
of talk about AGI where it's
like training itself and yeah.

348
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,600
I listen to a lot of podcasts
and I, I, I listen to a lot of,

349
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:02,280
a lot of experts in the area and
I haven't heard a consensus

350
00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,280
about that, right.
It's all up in the area.

351
00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,080
Some people say it's 2-3 years
away, but people were saying

352
00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,840
that two to three years ago when
ChatGPT first came out, right?

353
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,360
And we're not, obviously we're
not anywhere close to AGI yet.

354
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:14,120
Some people say it's 20 years
away.

355
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:18,720
So I don't, I don't know, you
know, I think we just, we just

356
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,160
have to keep paying attention
and, and see where it goes.

357
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,520
I've made some very incorrect
predictions already with AI, so

358
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:26,480
I yeah, I don't want to predict
that one as well because I'll

359
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,440
also be wrong.
But last question here, if I'm a

360
00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:31,200
small business center, what's
like one thing that I must be

361
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,040
using AI for?
Yeah.

362
00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:38,160
I mean, I think, I think the the
content generation and then the

363
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,480
the other thing that's been
we've we've used it a lot for is

364
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:43,560
reading documents, including
legal documents.

365
00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,480
So when you get a legal
document, feed it into AI, ask

366
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,480
it to summarize it for you.
Ask the AI if there's anything

367
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:52,520
that could pose a threat to your
business.

368
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,800
AI is really good at taking its
content like legalese,

369
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,520
distilling it, helping you
understand it as a layperson or

370
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,520
a business owner.
That's been a big one for us.

371
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:04,599
So, yeah, I think those are the
the content generation, document

372
00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:09,520
review, quality control, if you
can feed it either transcripts

373
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,200
from phone conversations or, you
know, employee emails, those

374
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,400
sort of things to make sure that
employees are doing what you

375
00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:17,880
want or responding in the way
that you would approve of,

376
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,000
that's another opportunity. 100%
agreed.

377
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,720
So Jeremy, if I'm a small
business owner, should I take

378
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:26,680
the time and money to invest in
cybersecurity?

379
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,000
Absolutely.
The threat actors, the hackers,

380
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,240
the bad guys, they're after all
sizes of business.

381
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:37,640
I was at a a conference about
cyber insurance last week and

382
00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,880
over 90% of the attacks now are
targeted at small businesses.

383
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:42,120
Really.
I guess because they're easier

384
00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:43,440
to get into, because people are
not investing.

385
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,560
I'm sorry, there's.
So many of them, they tend to be

386
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,520
easy targets, Yeah.
And they have money either in

387
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,040
their operating accounts or
through cyber insurance

388
00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,200
policies.
So the threat actors are going

389
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,480
after them.
So if cyber insurance, is it

390
00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,840
like someone gets hacked and
they haven't like money involved

391
00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,080
and they get money paid back, so
that sort of thing, Yeah, so.

392
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:05,400
Cyber insurance will cover
things like remediation,

393
00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:11,040
recovering from a hack.
It will sometimes also cover

394
00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,280
paying a threat actor and
Bitcoin for to get data back or

395
00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,680
to get a decryption key if your
data gets encrypted.

396
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,600
So.
A ransomware kind of thing?

397
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:19,440
Yeah.
Ransomware.

398
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,840
Yep.
So then how do I know if I'm

399
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,800
properly protected?
Well, I would say that you know

400
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,800
two things.
One is speak to an IT

401
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,120
professional, OK, Make sure.
That one of your guys?

402
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:32,280
One of my guys can.
Do the job.

403
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,600
There's many of us out there.
So, you know, talk to your IT

404
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,800
company, your MSP, whoever it
is, or just a knowledgeable

405
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,400
person.
If you're just starting up, make

406
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:43,000
sure that you talk to somebody
that you know that knows about

407
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,640
it and get some advice there.
The other thing is talk to your

408
00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:48,120
insurance broker.
Make sure you have the

409
00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:51,360
appropriate level of coverage.
Cyber insurance is typically

410
00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:54,320
priced by the amount of revenue
that the business is doing as

411
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:56,120
well as the industry.
But a lot of times it's, you

412
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:57,760
know, it's a combination of
those two things.

413
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,920
But I would recommend if you're
anywhere beyond just startup

414
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:04,840
phase, you should have cyber
insurance on your business.

415
00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:06,000
Yeah, that's good.
I like that.

416
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,360
Should I be investing in my
employees getting cybersecurity

417
00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:10,440
training?
Yeah.

418
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,920
So there are many tools out
there for cybersecurity

419
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:14,480
awareness training.
Absolutely.

420
00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,680
Almost every cyber attack that
we've seen originates through an

421
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,600
employee, whether it's through
an e-mail.

422
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,960
Social engineering and phishing.
Social engineers.

423
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,720
All at now, yeah, because
there's built in protections

424
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,600
like SQL injections, like cross
site scripting, sort of, but

425
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,920
phishing and social engineering,
you just fall for those, yeah.

426
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:35,120
Yeah.
And if you don't have controls

427
00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:37,280
around it, if your employees
aren't trained on what to look

428
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,080
for, yeah, sooner or later
they're gonna fall for

429
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:41,320
something.
Nice.

430
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,240
Do you all have a system where
you like maybe send employees

431
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:45,920
like fake phishing emails?
Yeah.

432
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,360
So a lot of the cyber security
awareness training programs out

433
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:51,640
there, we have one that we use,
we'll send simulated phishing

434
00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,240
emails and if the user clicks on
the link in the e-mail, then

435
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,400
they're automatically enrolled
in some additional training.

436
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,000
Exactly.
Yeah, So those.

437
00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:02,320
Sorts of tools are important if
you can't afford the cyber

438
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,400
security awareness training
packages that are out there.

439
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,640
So you're really small business,
there's training on YouTube, you

440
00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,120
know, there's common threats
that small businesses face.

441
00:20:10,120 --> 00:20:13,320
So at the very least go on
YouTube, get some videos, send

442
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,320
them out to your people.
Make sure that that people know

443
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,560
what to look for.
We, we have similar trainings

444
00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,840
and if someone does click on it,
it gets so mad.

445
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:21,040
Why did I fall for that?
Like that?

446
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,160
It's so silly.
But I've, I've always told

447
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,360
people if we had, we get like
free lunches.

448
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:27,440
And so they'll send in an e-mail
for like there's someone on

449
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,680
Thursdays, we get a free lunch.
They'll send in a link, like

450
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,320
click on the link to check out
what you want on the menu.

451
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:36,520
And like that could be a fish
attack and totally give me you

452
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,320
gotta be careful.
But one thing companies need to

453
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,280
be make sure they do is have
like external links from non

454
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,400
internal emails also.
Yeah, so if I see that external,

455
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:47,560
it's immediate red flag.
Whereas if it's internal, I'm

456
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,080
kind of like my defenses are
down.

457
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,280
That's right.
I mean, a common attack is CEO

458
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:55,760
fraud where, you know, the CEO
emails the CFO or the controller

459
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:58,080
and says, hey, I'm in a meeting,
but I need you to wire money.

460
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,560
You know, I don't have time to
talk right now, but just wire

461
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:02,000
this money to this account,
right?

462
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,960
And so a lot of times those
emails originate from outside,

463
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:10,320
but they claim to be from the.
CEO, Have you been mocked?

464
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:11,160
I guess?
What's the word?

465
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,080
Are you imitated?
Yeah, my, my, my, my accounting

466
00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,160
staff is very familiar with.
Getting emails.

467
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,200
Those kinds of emails, yeah.
And they're, you know, they'll

468
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:20,880
be like, this isn't you, right?
And at this point, they've

469
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,240
gotten so many of them that
they're sort of, I mean, you

470
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,240
know, they know I'm not going to
e-mail them and ask them to wire

471
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:25,720
money.
So.

472
00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:27,600
Yeah, so.
How does your firm like stay up

473
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,160
to date with like the latest
cyber security trends and

474
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:31,680
trainings and that sort of
thing?

475
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,680
Yeah, I mean, so, you know,
conferences are a big one for us

476
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:36,560
because we're an IT.
We go to a lot of conferences,

477
00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,840
get the training there.
We have a chief information

478
00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,520
security officer in our company.
He's keeping us up to date.

479
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,480
We have technologists.
So, you know, a lot of it is

480
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,600
reading the literature that's
out there, getting the

481
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,760
newsletters, attending
conferences, sending people to

482
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,840
training.
We can do that because we're an

483
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,000
IT company.
If if you're not an IT company,

484
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,840
you know, talk to your IT
company, the folks that you use

485
00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:01,760
for IT about this, ask what they
recommend, ask if there's some

486
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:04,240
material that you can review or
just, you know, have a have a

487
00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,360
regular meeting with them to be
aware of the threats that are

488
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:07,000
out there.
So.

489
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,720
Our providing cybersecurity like
defenses is that like the main

490
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:13,760
service that your company
offers?

491
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,200
I wouldn't say that it's the
main service, but it is a

492
00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:18,920
service.
So we have a a stack of tools

493
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,720
that we put in every customer
environment to protect them from

494
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:23,880
cyber threats.
So, you know, we've got the more

495
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,280
traditional, what used to be
called antivirus, now it's

496
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,800
called EDRMDR that lives on
every computer, watches for

497
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,400
things, bad things that are
happening.

498
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,160
We've also got a tool that lives
in the cloud e-mail systems now,

499
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:37,400
right?
So you've got to, you've got to

500
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,360
have that a lot of the attacks
now we're coming through cloud

501
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:42,800
e-mail, Office 365 or Google
Workspace.

502
00:22:44,360 --> 00:22:47,120
And then there's, you know,
there's a host of other tools as

503
00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:49,080
well.
So we're we're constantly

504
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,800
evaluating the threat landscape,
looking at the attacks, we get

505
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,280
the information about the types
of attacks that are happening

506
00:22:55,280 --> 00:23:00,640
and we're aligning our tools
with the attacks that we see to

507
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,840
best protect our customers.
So that's what you provide your

508
00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,600
customers.
Now, what exactly were you

509
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:09,240
providing your first customers?
Well, I mean, you know, 18 years

510
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,760
ago we were just providing
antivirus and firewalls, right?

511
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,360
That was a very different
landscape, very differently.

512
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,640
There was no ransomware back
then.

513
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,440
There was no business e-mail
compromise.

514
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,680
Very fair.
You know, the, the worst thing

515
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,600
we had to worry about was, you
know, somebody getting a virus

516
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:24,960
on their computer.
That was really more of an

517
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,760
annoyance than anything else.
So it's, it's the threat.

518
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,600
The stakes are much higher now.
Got you.

519
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,320
So you bootstraps complete
started from the ground up?

520
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,240
Was it by yourself or do you
have a cofar?

521
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,280
Yeah, initially it was by
myself, started consulting and,

522
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,200
yeah, just went out and, you
know, found some clients, hired

523
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,880
a couple people.
And again, it's just time for

524
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,240
money so that we'd sell our time
for money, time and expertise

525
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,160
for money.
And then two years into running

526
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,400
my business, I realized I was a
really good technician, not so

527
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,480
good at business.
So I went and got an MBA through

528
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:01,360
an executive MBA program.
And that was the thing that

529
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:04,280
really caused me to think about
how do I scale this thing?

530
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,160
Because I wanted to build
something scalable and I wanted

531
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,720
to grow.
And after I did that, I, I sort

532
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,680
of figured out like a business
model that I could follow the

533
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,000
MSP business model, which is the
the model that we.

534
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,480
Followed So you followed a
specific business model to help

535
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:19,640
you scale your business.
Yeah.

536
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,680
We found a consultant out in the
marketplace.

537
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,240
His name was Gary Pica and he,
he was somebody that had started

538
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,400
an IT consulting business and
started this really this MSP

539
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,160
managed service provider
business model.

540
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,520
And we sort of we he was selling
education on how to how to

541
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,520
implement that business model.
And so we bought that, followed

542
00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,160
him, learned everything that
that he had to offer and it

543
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:42,160
worked.
It worked.

544
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:43,600
Yeah.
We built our business around

545
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,480
that model.
So would you recommend using

546
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:47,720
that model specifically for
people to scale their business,

547
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,640
or is there other models that
you're aware of?

548
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,560
I I think in in our space, the
MSP model still does really

549
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:55,680
work.
I think that the the good thing

550
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,720
about our business in that space
at that time is we were an early

551
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,880
entrant.
So finding customers that at

552
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,960
that time was fairly easy.
Yeah, the space has become super

553
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,240
competitive at this point.
So unless you like fighting

554
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,600
against a lot of competitors, I
wouldn't necessarily recommend

555
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,880
the MSP space at this point.
Got you, Higher barrier.

556
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,440
Yeah, much higher barrier to.
What were some key insights from

557
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,680
that specific model?
You know the key, the key

558
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,240
insights for us were when people
buy IT services, at least at the

559
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,200
time they wanted a predictable
cost for the IT services that

560
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,400
they were buying.
So the previous model of selling

561
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,600
IT services is it was a cost per
hour.

562
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,000
And no matter how many hours you
use, you're going to pay that

563
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,920
price per hour.
So one month, one month you

564
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,440
might get a bill for $1000.
The next month you might get a

565
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,080
bill for $10,000.
Yeah.

566
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:44,240
And you just couldn't predict
it.

567
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:49,440
So what what we learned from
Gary Pico was people want to be

568
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,080
able to budget for IT.
So you need to figure out what's

569
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,280
that sort of average amount of
effort that you're going to give

570
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:59,080
to an account of a certain size,
give them a flat fee and any,

571
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,640
any amount of service they use
in that given month you're going

572
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,440
to include in that flat fee.
You're going to so wait, so

573
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,560
maybe it's $1000 flat fee that
was like despite the number of

574
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,240
hours that.
Exactly, exactly.

575
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,760
And then it's on us to sort of
control and make sure that like,

576
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,520
you know, we could be profitable
in this.

577
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,800
Account, got you.
So yeah, my next question was

578
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,040
about pricing.
How does your pricing kind of

579
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,400
change from a start up, I guess
later down the road then you

580
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,600
implemented that flat fee and it
really helps you scale at that

581
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,160
point?
Right, right.

582
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:30,200
So, you know, that was that was
a little bit of sort of seeing

583
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,520
what else was out there in the
market, right, looking at what

584
00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,680
our competitors were charging.
There's ways to get that

585
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,760
information, you know, just sort
of seeing what people are were

586
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,880
willing to pay.
And I would say nowadays it's

587
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,680
probably much easier because you
can go on social media sites

588
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,840
like Reddit or subreddits for
any industry you want to go into

589
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,160
and look at people will publish
their their rates, right.

590
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,840
So you can get that information
on the Internet now and then

591
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,840
it's tailoring it to your
offering, your geography, what

592
00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,800
market are you in?
Are you in high cost of living,

593
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,880
low cost of living, somewhere in
between because it can be

594
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,360
variable depending on that.
And you know, and then and then

595
00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:08,680
see what you can, what you can
sell, what kind of value can you

596
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,160
sell.
So at what point do you decide,

597
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,080
hey, it's now it's time to twist
the pricing nozzle a little bit,

598
00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:16,120
walk us through that as a
startup and.

599
00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:20,240
Yeah, yeah.
So I think, you know, the the

600
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,760
key to being able to increase
your prices is to develop an

601
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,520
effective sales engine so that
you've got new customers coming

602
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,640
in.
That way, if you have customers

603
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,920
that are underpaying for
services, you have the freedom

604
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,200
to raise their price.
And if they don't like it, they

605
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:35,960
can go elsewhere.
And you're not, you know, you're

606
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:37,800
not realizing when.
You raise the price, people are

607
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:38,560
gonna leave.
You're.

608
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:40,560
Gonna insurance some customers
if you raise the price.

609
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,520
For sure, but potentially a lot,
hopefully a lot will still stay

610
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,040
and then you're increasing more
revenue that you can work also

611
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,480
to scale farther that sort of.
Thing You're keeping your

612
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:50,200
profitable customers.
You're bringing on more

613
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,240
profitable customers.
You're offloading your less

614
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,040
profitable customers and that
will help you scale.

615
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:58,520
It's a virtuous cycle.
Take me to the time you first

616
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,080
increased your prices with your
first customer.

617
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:05,800
Oh boy, yeah.
You know that that's going back

618
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,760
a ways.
And I think that discussion was

619
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,720
was fairly easy because I, I was
still doing hourly billing at

620
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,560
that point in time.
If if I go to the fixed fee

621
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:18,800
model and think about the first
time we raised our prices there,

622
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,880
we've sort of done it
incrementally.

623
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,400
Every couple of years we
announce a price increase

624
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,480
typically, you know, single
digit percentage 2 to 5%

625
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,240
somewhere in that range and we
justify it was something that

626
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,680
we're doing.
Additionally, we've gained this

627
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:35,520
additional capability.
We've got these additional

628
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:37,400
people, we've got these
additional skill sets, we're

629
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,120
having to raise the price, you
know, and the other thing that

630
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,800
we will do often times if we're
raising prices for customers is

631
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,560
offer to lock them into a multi
year contract so that they have

632
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,040
that price for several years
instead.

633
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,400
Of one or two years.
Yeah.

634
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,920
So you have a you have a long
term customer there, you have

635
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,120
consistency with them, right.
Interesting.

636
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,600
That's a good way to do it.
And I guess during that time you

637
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,800
can bring in new customers,
increase the rate then with the

638
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,760
new people, but not your loyal
customers.

639
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:03,880
That's right.
Nice.

640
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:06,680
That's pretty fun.
Should I borrow money to help

641
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,200
scale?
Yeah, that's, that's a good

642
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,480
question.
So I think there's my

643
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,240
perspective.
I'm a fairly conservative person

644
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,280
with my money.
I like to be careful because

645
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,840
starting my business Bootstrap,
it's it's my money, right?

646
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:27,640
So I think there's two scenarios
where it makes sense to borrow

647
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,280
money.
One is if you're making a

648
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,440
capital purchase, that will help
you increase your output, right?

649
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,120
You're buying a a machine,
you're buying vehicles.

650
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,280
You can see.
You can see a related ROI.

651
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:39,760
Right.
You're getting you're, there's,

652
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:41,720
there's a payday at the end of
that you're going to make money

653
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,120
with that, that capital
purchase.

654
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,240
So that's one.
The other one is acquisitions.

655
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,040
If you're borrowing money to
acquire another business, I

656
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,160
think that can make a lot of
sense and we've we've done that

657
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,160
a few Times Now.
Should I borrow money to

658
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,680
increase my advertising or
social media?

659
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,280
Presence.
No.

660
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,160
No if you can't.
If you can't increase your

661
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,440
advertising budget out of cash
flow, probably shouldn't be

662
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,360
doing it.
Should I be investing personal

663
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,440
time in my digital media
presence for my company?

664
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,080
Yeah.
I, I think, you know, as, as

665
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,840
business owners we have to be
engaged in our marketing

666
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,320
efforts.
You know, as you grow, you can

667
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,200
hire marketing people, but you
still want to sort of set the

668
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,080
tone and and at least be be
working with those people.

669
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,920
I think marketing marketing is
hard.

670
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,680
It's actually one of the hardest
things that we do right.

671
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:30,200
You spend a lot of money on
marketing.

672
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:31,240
You feel we're.
Engineers.

673
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:34,640
That's right.
I feel like a lot of marketing

674
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:38,760
dollars are are are wasted, but
you have to do it.

675
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:40,680
You've got to spend the money on
marketing or else you won't find

676
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:42,960
new customers.
And so you, you cannot scale

677
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,560
without marketing.
I mean, from my perspective, the

678
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,320
answer is no.
You've got a market to scale.

679
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:49,480
There you go.
Well, Jeremy, thank you so much.

680
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:50,840
That was awesome.
He's great to be here.

681
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:51,240
Thank you.